Focal Points Blog

Slovenia and Bulgaria: a Tale of Two Reforms

Cross-posted from John is currently traveling in Eastern Europe and observing its transformations since 1989.

Philip Bokov, Bulgarias ambassador to Slovenia

Philip Bokov, Bulgarias ambassador to Slovenia

Slovenia and Bulgaria are, respectively, the best-case scenario and the cautionary example of “transition” states. Both have struggled to transform communist-era economic and political structures. Both are now members of the European Union and NATO. But their economic and political realities place them practically on different planets.

Slovenia has a per capita GDP of $29,000 that puts it above all other East-Central European transition states and several West European states as well. Bulgaria’s per capita GDP is less than half, at $13,800, below Belarus, Botswana, and Libya.

In the last UN Human Development Index, Slovenia ranked 21, which put it above the UK, Luxembourg, and the EU average. Bulgaria clocked in at 55, below all other European countries except Serbia and Albania.

In the Catch-Up Index, which grades European countries according to economy, governance, democracy, and quality of life, Slovenia came in at the EU average and Bulgaria was near the bottom of the list, just below Romania. In Transparency International’s Corruption Perceptions Index for 2012, Slovenia ranked 37 while Bulgaria occupied a rather dismal 75th place.

For better or worse, Slovenia has successfully vaulted into Western Europe while Bulgaria has remained behind the informal Iron Curtain that continues to divide the developed from the developing parts of the region.

Philip Bokov is uniquely suited to compare the most successful and the least successful of the reform processes in East-Central Europe. He was involved in the Bulgarian transition first in the Bulgarian foreign ministry, then in parliament as a member of the Bulgarian Socialist Party (BSP), and after that part of a breakaway faction of the BSP. Now, he serves as Bulgaria’s ambassador to Slovenia, where he arrived in 2008.

To understand the different trajectories that Bulgaria and Slovenia took after 1989, Bokov identifies historical and cultural factors, such as inclusion in the Austro-Hungarian versus the Ottoman empires. The economic starting points of the two countries were also very different, with Bulgaria heavily dependent on the Soviet market and Slovenia already facing West in the 1980s.

Then there was the geopolitical factor. “The central European countries, and in particular Germany, were very much concerned about the disintegration of Yugoslavia, and they didn’t allow Slovenia to fall under,” he told me in an interview in the Bulgarian embassy in Ljubljana last October. “Politically, they adopted it like a child and they nurtured it.”

This geopolitical preference extended to the question of economic reform. “When I came here four years ago I was surprised by how few reforms they had done,” the ambassador observes of the Slovenian reform process. “The majority of the economy here is still in the hands of the government. And they were recognized as a market economy, perhaps as a state market economy with state-ownership. They were adopted by the central European countries, like Germany and Austria, and nobody criticized them for lack of reforms. Bulgaria, meanwhile, was under very heavy pressure.”

In 1990, I interviewed Philip Bokov about the economic and political realities in Bulgaria. In 2012, we revisited these questions with the benefits of hindsight and cross-country comparisons. Our conversation ranged across the pitfalls of privatization, the role of Russia and Turkey, and the future of socialist and social democratic parties in Europe. I’ve appended the 1990 interview below the current conversation.

The Interview

Do you remember where you were and what you were thinking when you heard about the fall of the Berlin Wall?

I was in New York. I was working for the Bulgarian foreign ministry, and I was at the UN General Assembly. I was sitting in the First Committee [on disarmament and threats to peace] when the East Germans came over and told us that the Wall had fallen. There were news releases from the press agencies hanging in the lobby, so we could read about it straight away.

What did you think when you heard the news?

I thought that major changes were on the way. I didn’t know what the major changes would be, of course. And perhaps nobody expected such type of changes. It was obvious that Europe was changing.

And very soon after that, of course, was the news about the fall of Todor Zhivkov.

Yes, it happened almost during the same time. And I think everybody felt a sense of relief. I think the fall of Zhivkov was expected in Bulgaria. Again, nobody knew what would happen after that, but everybody was united on this.

I want to go back a little bit before 1989. If I remember correctly, you had been involved in the youth department of the Party.

No. I was never a Party worker before 1989. I was in the foreign ministry all the time. For a while I worked as deputy director of Sofia Press Agency, which was a publishing house in foreign languages. So my career development was pretty straightforward from that. Actually I got involved in politics without ever expecting to after the changes started.

It happened in a very interesting way actually. When I came back from New York in 1989, there was no government in Bulgaria. I was appointed spokesperson of the new government, and then within a month I was appointed director of Bulgarian Television. This coincided exactly with when the roundtable started, and there were some disagreements about the way the roundtable was reported on television. The newly emerging opposition forces united in the Union of Democratic Forces wanted to control the way the news was being broadcast. They made an agreement at the roundtable to have a joint working group that would review jointly and agree on the way that the roundtable was reported.

But then, regardless of this decision, the UDF came to me and insisted that only they should have control. And I said I wouldn’t do that. The BSP party organization in television liked this decision—there were party organizations in television—and I was elected a delegate to the 10th congress of the Communist Party. And this is how I happened to run for politics. Before that I had never occupied any elected or non-elected political office.

Before this happened, what career trajectory had you expected?

It was a pretty even and predictable career. A foreign service career can be predicted a long time ahead, and I expected to climb the ladder of this career, ultimately becoming ambassador.

You learned in English in school?

In school, yes. I studied in the Sofia English Language School.

And what motivated your decision to study English?

It was my mother’s decision, actually. When I was about 10, she took me to English language courses. They were extra-curricular English language courses, and I studied English there. Then, when I graduated from the primary school, I had exams for the secondary English school, I was accepted, and that’s how it started.

When we talked 22 years ago, it was not long after the elections. Many people in the opposition were shocked that the BSP won those elections. So we talked about some of the reasons, and I cited the opposition’s charges that there had been manipulation in the countryside. The opposition, of course, had won majorities in major cities but had lost in the countryside. You didn’t think there had been any manipulation, and you said the intellectuals and dissidents were largely in the big cities, and that’s why the opposition had won in the big cities. But at the time you said sociologists and political scientists should study this election very carefully to determine why the BSP won. And I’m curious whether, 22 years later, you’ve thought about why the BSP won. Because that was an important election.

It was. It was a landmark election: perhaps the only election in Eastern Europe where the former communist party did not lose. I don’t remember my explanations at the time, but I think this win can be explained in terms of the development of Bulgarian society. Up to that point Bulgaria had never had very strong dissident movements as in other Eastern European countries. It never had Soviet interventions. Historically the attitude toward the Soviet Union was positive, even among people with a right-wing political orientation. At the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century, even the right-wing parties were pro-Russian, as opposed to the liberal parties that were anti-Russian for ideological reasons. So, generations were brought up here with this attitude toward the Soviet Union.

There is perhaps another explanation: that communism or socialism in the form that it was practiced had not run out its life in Bulgaria. Under communism Bulgaria was industrialized, it was urbanized, and society had changed tremendously. Communism had not reached the point, as in other Eastern European countries, where it had to be replaced. And I think many people still liked it at that time.

Here, as in Poland, there was a similar irony in which the former Communists took over and implemented an economic reform that was in many respects neo-liberal: economic austerity, privatization, the closing of major factories. When we talked, you recognized that it was a somewhat strange situation. I’m curious, 22 years later, whether you think that the BSP had any choice in terms of economic reform. And if it did have any choices, could it have done economic reform any different at that time?

I think that the BSP did not have any choice because of the conventional wisdom that was reigning at that time. But in hindsight now, I don’t think that the conventional wisdom was very wise. The past 20 years have proven that political democracy and market economy are not sufficient to have prosperity. In some countries this has worked; in others it hasn’t.

The typical example is, for example, Slovenia. When I came here four years ago I was surprised by how few reforms they had done. The majority of the economy here is still in the hands of the government. And they were recognized as a market economy, perhaps as a state market economy with state-ownership. They were adopted by the central European countries, like Germany and Austria, and nobody criticized them for lack of reforms. Bulgaria, meanwhile, was under very heavy pressure. Another example is China, which has a developing society without having political freedom. It’s another matter how long this can last, and what would happen if the Communist Party in China departs the scene, for this is the force that is cementing society there.

The conventional wisdom worked in some of the central and eastern European countries—like Poland, for example. And it was thought for a very long time that it had worked in Hungary. But now it turns out that it didn’t. Hungary, 20 years later, has a wobbly economy and lacks a democratic society. So, things in hindsight now look much more complicated than they looked at the time.

And I don’t think that in Bulgaria anybody had a clear idea about exactly what should be done, how it should be done, and where it would lead the country. Because the way the economy has developed, the way privatization has been implemented has brought about tremendous losses to the country with an accompanying drop in living standards.

Why could Slovenia embark on what has been called a “slow transition,” as opposed to a “shock-therapy” transition, and Bulgaria either wasn’t allowed to or couldn’t?

There are two reasons. One is the almost total dependence of Bulgaria on the Soviet market, at that time within Comecon. If I remember the figures correctly, about 60% of Bulgaria’s trade went to the Soviet Union, and 80% to Comecon. Only 20% was with the rest of the world.

Slovenia was a different case. Being part of Yugoslavia at that time, it had a semi-market economy with worker self-management, and it had much closer links with neighboring countries such as Italy, Austria, Germany. This was a question that intrigued me very much when I came here, and I talked to a lot of people about it. One professor in economics told me that because Slovenia was very insistent on leaving Yugoslavia — and this was a general feeling regardless of the political orientation of Slovenians — they were afraid that when they lost the Yugoslav market they would have to compensate this with something. He told me that directors of companies here, which were then “worker-managed,” went in their cars to Austria, to Italy, to neighboring countries to secure orders, to make sure that their companies would continue working. And they were very successful.

The second reason was political. The central European countries, and in particular Germany, were very much concerned about the disintegration of Yugoslavia, and they didn’t allow Slovenia to fall under. Politically, they adopted it like a child and they nurtured it. And Slovenia did very well, actually. If you compare the living standards of Slovenia and Bulgaria, they’re worlds apart. The Slovenians have had it very good, the best compared to all the other central and eastern Europeans countries. The Slovak ambassador was complaining to me that the average wage in Slovenia is about 1100 Euro while in Slovakia it’s 600. This is almost twice as much. Of course, now the Slovenians are in for a hard time, because they will have to do some of the reforms—perhaps not all of them—that they missed while the other Eastern Europeans were doing them.

On the question of privatization in Bulgaria, when I talk to people there, it’s one of the greatest complaints. They’re upset about the sales to foreign owners, like the Bulgarian airline, which was basically dismantled. They’re also upset about properties sold to Bulgarians. People feel that it was politically motivated rather than economically motivated. In other countries, privatization was often politicized specifically to ensure the stability of the economic system at a time of great political instability.

This is what the Czechs did. They were more successful in this respect. But see, privatization was not and perhaps still is not such a popular idea, and for very obvious reasons. If you have something which is nobody’s, or so-called government-owned, or socially owned, how do you give it to some member of society?

In Bulgaria, for example, after 20 years of privatization and economic development, people perhaps have come to love capitalism. But they don’t love capitalists. It’s a paradox, and it’s natural. Before, you and your neighbor were living on the same floor of the same block of flats. Your neighbor had almost the same social status as your own, and now he’s driving a Mercedes, his children are studying in London or Berlin, and he goes for holidays in the Maldives. And you’re still in the same situation, or perhaps even worse than 20 years ago. The majority of people feel like this.

I don’t know whether anybody has devised a method to have fair privatization. I don’t think it’s fair. Why should I sell this property to you and not to the person next door? It’s a very devious process that hadn’t been done before. I mean, it had been done in the West, where England for example privatized, nationalized, and privatized the railways several times. But there was not this feeling of injustice.

The situation is similar here in Slovenia. Last year, ambassadors from the European Union had lunch with the then-leader of the opposition, now Prime Minister Janez Jansa. And my British colleague asked him exactly the same question about privatization: “Why isn’t privatization, 20 years after the start of the changes, still not on the platform program of the right-wing political party in Slovenia?” Janza said that in Slovenia, when asked in the opinion polls, 80% of the people are against privatization, and of the other 20% who are in favor, 80% percent of them want the companies to be sold to Slovenians—not foreigners.

So I think in order for the results of privatization to be accepted, several generations would have to pass. It is similar to the initial accumulation of capital, for example, in the United States with the Rockefellers or the Mellons. The emergence of capital has to be forgotten through the generations in order for this to be accepted.

You actually made the same point 22 years ago.

Did I? So, this hasn’t changed, and practice has confirmed this.

You talked about the paradox of people loving capitalism and not loving capitalists. Let’s talk for a moment about that other paradox: people loving democracy and not loving politicians. I could not find very much support for any particular politicians in Bulgaria. And there’s been such a rotation of parties in Bulgaria over the last 20 years. There’s been so little trust in the political system. Why do you think that’s the case?

It’s hard to say that politicians are liked anywhere: they are the usual culprits all the time. But the distrust of politicians in Bulgaria, and in some other countries in eastern and central Europe, has reached unbelievable depths. The reason perhaps is that the politicians have not delivered or, rather, that there had been greater expectations than the politicians could fulfill, and this has inevitably led to disappointment. This has expressed itself in forming new parties, leaving present parties, and so on. This migration from party to party has made the public all the more distrustful of politicians for they think that politicians lack principles and will do anything to get to office.

This process is very intensive in countries like Bulgaria, but it can be observed in Western Europe as well. This has probably been precipitated by the crisis, and the phenomenon is related to economic and social status of people. Look at what’s happening with the Netherlands or other countries with established democracies electing extreme parties. Look at the mistrust within the European Union, which was our guiding star 20 years ago. The EU is in shambles at the moment. There is no leadership. People are getting disappointed.

So, I think it is a general disappointment with politics, which has a more prominent expression in Bulgaria because of the social situation in the country. There was a period in the first decade of the century when the country was growing and people could feel this. Nobody said that the government was good or politicians were marvelous, but they felt in their pockets that things were moving forward. With the crisis all this stopped, of course. Bulgaria for number of reasons maintained its financial and economic stability, but at a much lower level. But the level of distrust and anger among the public increased.

Some people in Bulgaria, and a lot of people outside Bulgaria, have said that the decision to bring both Bulgaria and Romania into the EU was largely a political decision rather than a decision based on the economic status of both countries. And that bringing Bulgaria in early was a missed opportunity because the EU had certain leverage. The EU could have forced whatever Bulgarian government to implement more political or economic reforms. Once Bulgaria was inside the EU, that leverage largely disappeared. What do you think?

Had there not been the prospect of EU membership, reforms would have been much slower. It was a stimulus that exerted pressure on each and every party to make reforms. Maybe the decision to accept Bulgaria was political. But then again if one had waited for Bulgaria to reach the average level of the EU, this wouldn’t have happened in the next probably 20-30 years. So this was unrealistic to expect. I think we were lucky. We squeezed through a window of opportunity that existed until five years ago. Nowadays nobody would accept new members to the Union. The attitude has changed tremendously. Even when Bulgarians and Romanians were negotiating and nearing the end of the process, the lack of support in Western Europe was already evident.

You could also argue that during the Cold War, before the changes of 1989, the West was speaking of uniting the whole continent, but it didn’t have all the countries in mind. They had in mind Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary. And then, of course, when 1989 happened the West could not step back and say, “We don’t want Bulgaria, we don’t want Romania.” They had to make a decision about that. So this was lucky for Bulgaria that it could squeeze in. But yes, membership has slowed down the pace of reform.

It’s a two-way process actually. Reforms are not being pursued very intensively in Bulgaria, but at the same time the European Commission is also vilifying Bulgaria. Of course, the level of corruption and crime in Bulgaria is unacceptable — but statistically perhaps it’s not greater than any other country. There was a funny story, perhaps seven or eight years ago in one of the newspapers written by, I think, an African journalist. It was just after George W. Bush was elected. What would one think of a country, he wrote, where the president is elected with fewer votes than his adversary and his brother is the governor of the state that counts the votes that decides the election? And what would one think about a country where the prime minister owns all the television stations—as in Italy—and who adopts laws to exonerate him from court proceedings? These things are passed over sometimes very easily in other countries, but never justified in Bulgaria.

But as a whole I think Bulgaria is moving in the right direction. Not as quickly perhaps as everybody would like, but the country has changed tremendously. We are living in this country all the time, and perhaps we cannot see it from the outside.

When I ask people about positive developments here in Bulgaria, they basically say the same things. They like the new subway system in Sofia and the road projects, like the one between Sofia and Plovdiv. And, of course, as you travel you see all of these signs about EU funding for infrastructure and development.

This actually should have been done much earlier. The Croats borrowed money and built all their infrastructure with borrowed money. This is something the Slovenians did too. One of the first decisions of the transitional government after independence was to connect Slovenia to Italy and Austria, with motor ways, with a tunnel under the Alps. Bulgaria was very slow in this respect. Perhaps because of vested interests.

People were very proud of the fact that Bulgaria paid back its debts and kept a very low debt ratio. It almost reminded me of the Ceausescu period in Romania, because of course Ceausescu basically starved the population in order to pay back debt. Perhaps if Bulgaria had taken on a little bit more debt, it might have been able to stimulate the economy more.

This was a reaction to the banking crisis we had in 1996-97. I think people were burned at that time, and they thought that you shouldn’t borrow money just to be on the safe side. They weren’t prepared at that time for the collapse of the banks, and many people lost their money.

We saw what might have happened in Hungary a couple of years later when they borrowed money and the economy collapsed. This is also a chicken-and-egg question among economists. Is it better to have a slight deficit and encourage consumption, or is it better to suppress consumption in order to be stable?

It depends on where you invest the money and what the return is. And the scale of the borrowing. It’s much better to rely on a medium- or worst-case scenario than on the better scenarios, as many countries have done.

One topic we discussed 22 years ago was the structure of the BSP itself. At the time you said there were two choices: a split in the Party between more conservative and more reform-minded elements or the restructuring of the Party itself. The first would probably lead to the Party’s collapse, you thought, and the second would ensure that the Party would survive. I’m curious what you think happened.

I think the Party survived. But now I think it would have been much better had it split—which I didn’t think at the time. I participated in the meantime in several factions, and I even left the BSP. I was a member of the Euro-Left Party, which was a social democratic party and which lasted for about three or four years. The BSP has moved toward social democracy persistently, but at a very slow pace. This has affected the political life of the Party. In some cases the BSP has acted as a break on social and economic processes, because it was not prepared to move forward and was weighed down by rather conservative elements.

The membership of the BSP perhaps has not changed that much, and it has mainly followed the leadership. The president of the BSP is the head of the Party of European Socialists. Presumably sister parties are recognizing the BSP as a social democratic party at the moment. And the previous governments led by the BSP proved by its policies that it’s a social democratic party. But had it split, this process of becoming a social democratic party would have happened more quickly and easily.

The social democratic side of the political spectrum is rather crowded with a number of parties differentiating themselves in sometimes rather minor ways.

Looking at the political landscape at the moment in Bulgaria, there is only one true party with a program and structures and an ideologically united and motivated membership, and that is the BSP. All the other parties are crypto-parties. We had a party of the former king, for example, in the early 21st century. Now the party in government says that it is a right-wing party, but the majority of its members are former communists and members of the security forces and military men. When not in government, it will probably disintegrate. The so-called traditional right, represented by the former Union of Democratic Forces (UDF) parties, has all but disappeared.

The population is perhaps equally divided between left and right. But while the left can identify with the BSP, there are no political forces on the right with which the voters can identify. This is perhaps one of the reasons for the low voter turnout. Many people simply do not vote because they do not feel that their vote will count.

One other party has survived all this period, and that’s the Movement for Rights and Freedoms.

That’s a specific case, I think. It is based on ethnic unity, and it is very difficult to penetrate their electorate. Many parties have tried during this period to have Turks as members of their parties and to elect their representatives in Turkish areas. The leadership has sometimes played with the threat of assimilation and this keeps them together. The voters are not very well educated. They are susceptible to manipulation and propaganda of various types. And this explains the stability of this party. I don’t think, for the foreseeable future, that this will change.

It was announced, just before I left Bulgaria, that a dissident faction has broken off…

There have been many dissident factions actually. What the past 20 years have proven is that any faction is doomed to failure when it splits from the MRF. To a certain extent, the same is true about the BSP. I was a member of a faction that split and we disappeared politically. The BSP simply moved to our point of view, though nobody in the BSP said that we were right. That never happens in politics. All the splinters disappear into thin air, and politics remain stable.

To go back to the Movement of Rights and Freedoms for a moment. Everybody acknowledges that the leadership is authoritarian, that Ahmed Dogan is not particularly democratic in his instincts –

“Particularly” is a weak word, I think.

Yes, and or course his record of collaboration with the secret police came out. But even though everyone acknowledges there are many problems with the MRF, Bulgaria as a country has avoided the kind of ethnic strife that took place elsewhere in the region. And, generally speaking, the relationship between ethnic Turks and ethnic Bulgarians is reasonably good. I’m curious what you think.

I think yes, in the final analysis. Actually I was very much against the MRF, precisely because it is based on ethnic principles. But looking in hindsight now, it has played a positive role in channeling the votes, aspirations, and expectations of ethnic Turks in Bulgaria. And it has contributed tremendously to preventing the degeneration of relations between Bulgarians and Turks in events that we have seen around Bulgaria. So from this point of view, yes, the existence of the MRF is positive.

On the other hand, the leadership of the MRF has used this situation to be authoritarian, to be corrupt in many cases, and to exploit their political position because it knew that nobody would pressure them or attack them in order to preserve ethnic peace. So this has been bad. But then, Bulgaria is perhaps one of the newly emerging countries with the biggest national minorities — almost 10% of the population – where the minority has not revolted against the majority. Turkey has also played a positive role in this respect, because it hasn’t encouraged this minority (although many people in Bulgaria would say exactly the opposite).

When I was here 22 years ago, people said that they expected Turkey would play a negative role.

Yes, but this role did not materialize, and I think this was perhaps a sensible choice by the Turks. Also Turkey is surrounded by nations that were not very friendly toward them. Bulgaria is their only outlet to Europe, and I think they wouldn’t want to disrupt this situation. Bulgaria now has very good relations with Turkey. Trade is growing and so are human contacts.

What about the other major neighbor, Russia? I couldn’t help but notice as I was driving around Bulgaria that Lukoil was everywhere. Lukoil gas stations were perhaps the most prominent feature of the landscape. And many people complained about what they perceived as penetration of Russian capital—both legitimate and illegitimate — on the Black Sea.

This is a tremendous problem. I think the Russians still have not given up the idea that Bulgaria is somehow within their domain. They try in every way possible to penetrate Bulgaria. The sale of the Bulgaria refinery to Lukoil was a tremendous mistake. The problem is, how do you control this under capitalism?

I was on holiday last summer along the Black Sea coast, and I was speaking to friends of mine. Some of them deal with real estate and they said, “In the previous ten years there was a huge investment by the British, Irish, and Dutch buying properties in Bulgaria. But with the financial crisis and the collapse of the real estate market, the only ones who buy are the Russians, and how do you stop them?” You can’t. They’re right across the sea. It’s a tremendous problem because ultimately it will have political consequences.

In an ideal world, of course, Bulgaria could serve as a kind of intermediary between Russian and the European Union: an energy hub, a transportation hub.

I know this theory, but why should Russians need an intermediary when they can communicate with the rest of the world without Bulgaria? This is a too ambitious and too Bulgaria-self-centered idea. Of course, it would be good for Bulgaria to be a transit for Russian gas, for example, to have this South Stream pipeline. But at the same time it should also have the Nabucco pipeline, just to maintain its independence. We shouldn’t put all our eggs in one basket.

Especially if it’s a Russian basket.

The Russian basket is very insecure.

And Bulgaria, unlike Turkey for instance, doesn’t have an economic base with economic leverage.

Turkey is a big economy. During the crisis the Turks have growth of 8.5-9%, but this is because they have a huge internal market. And they have economic relations not only with the European Union, for example, but with the rest of the world. And Bulgaria is a very dependent economy. We’re 90% dependent on fuel imports from Russia.

You’ve been here for almost four years, and you talked a bit about learning from the Slovenian example on the economic side. Are there other lessons from the Slovenian case that you would bring back to Bulgaria and say, “look this is something we can learn from Slovenia”?

We can learn a lot from Slovenia, but the transition has shown in these past years that a lot depends on the national mentality. And you cannot change it. I would have liked, for example, to bring the Slovenian national mentality to Bulgaria, but you can’t just import it. Perhaps it is due to the different empires that the two countries were in. The Slovenians have always been with the Austrians in the Hapsburg Empire. Of course, they were the peasants of the Austrian landlords. But all the time they looked at what the landlords did, and they learned to do the same.

When I came here, for example, I was surprised by the neatness and tidiness of the place. Everything well maintained, well-done. If a Slovenian is building a house and has to finish the pavement in front of the house, he will do it down to the most minute detail and won’t leave it for the next week. The Bulgarian would get tired and say, “I’ll do it next week,” and then it will remain for the next five years.

So, this is a difference of mentality, and it affects everything in the country: political relations, social relations. Of course, this is not always a guarantee of anything. For example, I suppose you know that the present prime minister of Slovenia is being tried. And his counterpart, the leader of the opposition and the current mayor of Ljubljana, was held for investigation two weeks ago. So these things happen everywhere.

Some people say, “When you look at Bulgarians in Europe where they go as temporary workers, they work very hard. But then in Bulgaria they just sit around…”

I think Bulgarians adapt quickly to foreign environments. They’re law-abiding, hard working, industrious. But when they get back home, because there’s no social pressure to make you behave in a specific manner…

The same kind of dynamic was at work in Turkey. Where Turks worked as guest workers, they worked very hard, and then they came back and there was this so-called Ottoman mindset. But then something happened in Turkey in the 1970s and increasingly in the 1980s, and the mindset changed. Turkey suddenly became a very hardworking country—especially in central Anatolia. Some people point to Islam as the critical factor, acting in similar way to the Protestant ethic: postponing gratification, saving money. So I’m curious whether there’s a turning point when the mindset changes.

Perhaps there is. I don’t know when this turning point will come to Bulgaria. Perhaps the work ethnic depends on religion. I don’t know about Islam, whether as a religion it insists on a work ethic. But there are famous works on the work ethic of Protestantism. Orthodox Christianity is not very famous for this. Perhaps part of the reason that Slovenia is as it is is Catholicism. The Catholic Church is very strong here.

When you look back 22 years, are there particular positions you’ve rethought? You’ve talked about the pace of economic reform. You talked about the transformation of the BSP, and how it would have been better if it had actually split. And you’ve mentioned the MRF and the role it played in the Bulgaria. Are there other positions you held 22 years ago that you’ve rethought?

Well, I have rethought my expectations at that time. Nobody, including myself, expected that the transition would take such a long time. Everybody thought that in 5-6 years Bulgaria would get back on its feet, and these sort of reforms would be finished. It turned out to be much more difficult. And unfortunately it is also related to mentality, which takes generations to change. So I am less optimistic now than I used to be 20 years ago.

That leads to the last three questions, which are just very quick quantitative questions. When you look into the future and consider the next couple of years for Bulgaria, how do you assess the prospects on a scale from 1 to 10, 1 being most pessimistic, 10 being most optimistic?

Bulgaria is very dependent on the overall situation in the world. If this crisis wasn’t going on, I would have rated the chances of Bulgaria at 7. But nobody sees the end of this crisis. This month it is four years since Lehman Brothers collapsed, and there is still no prospect of it being overcome. So, I would rate Bulgaria’s chances at perhaps 4 or 5 — because there is no possibility of Bulgaria developing like it developed in the first decade of the 21st century, when development was based mainly on services, real estate, non-productive sectors. Bulgaria will have to develop specific industries in order to be competitive, in order to grow and develop. It takes time, investment, people who are motivated. But the Bulgarian capitalist class is mainly oriented to the easy buck. There were people in the 1990s who bankrupted their own banks – it’s absurd! They took the money and ran, instead of leaving the banks to their children and grandchildren.

When you look at 1989 and everything that has changed and not changed in Bulgaria until today, how would you evaluate everything on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being most dissatisfied and 10 being most satisfied?

I would rate it as 7, perhaps. There are many problems with the country, but the country has changed. Perhaps with the generations that are coming, the pace will become faster.

Finally, the same period of time and same scale but your own personal life, with 1 being most dissatisfied, 10 being most satisfied?

My problem is that I’m 20 years older! So that’s why I’m dissatisfied. I wouldn’t rate it because there is not much to expect in front of me. Had I been 24, 20 years ago, and then I would have been 44 years, chances would have been 10! Ten out of ten. But not now, not at my age.

Ljubljana, October 17, 2012

The Interview (1990)

Could you distinguish your party from, for instance, the Social Democratic party? I know that at the last Congress, the party struck “democratic centralism” from its platform, but beyond that, I’m a little in the dark about the Bulgarian Socialist Party’s present character.

Well, as you perhaps already realize, the Socialist Party is in a very fluid state and it is a conglomerate of many ideological and political views. Which is only natural since it only began changing last year. And, of course, there are sections of the party, people in the party who are trying to change, others who are trying to keep the previous situation. There are fights and debates between radicals, centrists and conservatives and so on. The 14th Congress held at the end of January was a major step in this change although in the opinion of some people, a step not big enough. There was a compromise at the Congress exactly because of this state of the party and the existence of various factions. Indeed, in the organizational area, the clause on democratic centralism was removed which was a significant break from the past. What was also significant in the platform adopted by the 14th Congress was the revision of some of the basic dogmas of Marxism. For example, the attitude toward socialism. As you realize, in dogmatic Stalinist Marxism, socialism was considered to be a social order that had to built, etc. At the Congress in January, the party rejected this notion and now the platform of the party regards socialism as a process, rather than something set, something specific which has to built.

Now, we are preparing the next Congress, which will be a regular Congress of the party, which will start on the 22nd of September. This week, on Monday, we published a new platform of the party. Since you started with the question what distinguishes the Socialist Party from the Social Democratic party–it is, I suppose, the attitude toward social democracy. There is a group of people in the party who strive for the social democratizing of the party. There is another school of thought which thinks that making the party purely social democratic is not enough in view of the fact that even in the West, parties and social democratic parties included are losing their significance in political terms and there are new social movements coming to the forefront which are influencing society very intensively. So, what this congress of the party will try to do will be to take what is considered to be most acceptable and most useful from Marxism, social democracy and these new social movements that exist. By the way, they came into existence in this country as well: the Greens, various other civic initiatives. So, the idea is to reform the party into a new left-wing party which will be oriented already toward the 21st century, incorporating everything positive and useful from present-day experience of socialists, social democrats and other alternative social movements. This is one of the differences.

There is another difference which is organizational. The constitution adopted by the Socialist Party after the changes in January is trying to become much more democratic than the Social Democratic party’s constitution. For example, we do not have expulsions: we cannot expel our members. The Social Democrats have this provision. This change toward a democratic constitution was made deliberately because we want to encourage the opening of the party toward society. Until last year, the party to a great extent resembled a sect which was self-sufficient because of lack of competition. Now, we want to encourage people to get into contact easily with our party, to become our sympathizers, to take part in various activities of our party, even without becoming full members of the party.

I have the feeling, personally, from watching events in Bulgaria, that the Social Democratic party, although it accepts of course all the major documents of the Socialist International, by its mentality bears too much from the past. This is perhaps due to the fact that the leaders of the party were in prison in the 1940s and they have this imprint. I sometimes characterize it as a “mothball imprint.” Some of them still live in the 1940s and 1950s. We, of course, would like to make a clean break with the past.

You are in charge of ideology for the party?

That is a broad description because ideology is a very unclear thing now. What I’m in charge of actually is public relations. I deal with newspapers, television, etc. And, of course, we are going to encourage ideological debate within the party. I should say that the party now has no set ideology. As I told you, we are prepared to accept for example, many things from Marxism. We don’t reject Marxism altogether. For example, the method of analysis of Marxism: even many people who do not consider themselves Marxists use it. But we want to incorporate the ideas of many different movements. For example, a large number of ideas lying behind the market economy both in the opposition and in our economic program sometimes bears resemblance to neo-conservatism as it was applied in the beginning of the 1980s in the West.

I understand that the ranks of the Party have been thinned in the political department: from 14,000 to something like 2000.

We are cutting very heavily the apparat, the people we employ, for two reasons. One reason is because we want to get rid of the influence of the apparat on the political bodies elected within the party, very characteristic of the proletarian period in this country. The second reason is pragmatic: we simply don’t have the funds to employ these people. After Jan. 1 this year, we wanted to stop subsidizing parties and political organizations in this country. And now we must rely on dues and some economic activity to support the party. We’re cutting about seven-fold. Then we will count on voluntary work.

The Party will have a Congress in September. I’ve heard many rumors of division within the Party. What are your expectations?

It is very difficult to predict. There is this possibility that the party will split. Of course, what will be important will be where the dividing line lies: whether in the middle or somewhere near the flanks. And this of course will determine the validity of the party and its capacity to participate in political life in this country. There are people, some of the radical movements for example, who believe that a split in the party is inevitable and even necessary, that the party should reinvigorate itself. There are other people, and I belong to this section, who think that the party can be reinvigorated avoiding a split by renewing itself and creating a totally new party on a totally new basis. I think this is possible because there is an engrained instinct–which is perhaps a remnant of the past among party members–for unity of the party. This instinct might make people who do not perhaps agree with the present policy of the party to rethink their view and make it possible to join this party.

There are two ways. A split and a restructuring. If the party succeeds on the second road, then this is the only chance for it to remain a viable political force in Bulgaria. Besides, as you have noticed perhaps, there are many dissimilarities between Bulgaria and other East European countries. One of the reasons perhaps for these dissimilarities is that we in the Socialist party in this country were able to watch the processes in the former Communist parties in other East European countries and we drew some lessons from their mistakes. I think a split in the party will be a mistake and will relegate the parties that come up after the split to the outskirts of political scene.

What roughly is the membership of the BSP?

850,000 from about a month ago. We have information that about 120,000 people are not accounted for from figures that we had in the beginning of the year.

Have you applied for membership in the Socialist International?

We haven’t done this formally although we had contacts with them and we wrote two letters to the SI explaining what was happening in our party, the changes, etc. But I think the attitude of the SI is wait-and-see: to see where the party goes and how it develops. Besides, there is the awkward situation that the Social Democratic party is a member.

In the election there was a distinct disparity between town and country. The opposition argued that the BSP made a lot of promises to workers and farmers in the countryside. Come local elections, the promises unkept, the opposition argues, people will overwhelmingly back the opposition. Do you see merit in this argument?

I think that is a superficial argument, actually. It is an argument that the opposition uses for propaganda and public relations. The fact is true that the cities voted for the opposition. But I don’t agree with the reasons they give for this. Some of their more aggressive members claim some things that sound absurd. Because of the lack of sugar in the shops, for example, they say that the BSP gave away sugar to the voters. I think there are some reasons which are sociological and merit a separate investigation. Neither we nor the opposition have gone that deep into studying the results of the elections yet. One of the reasons of the success of the opposition in the cities lies in the state of Bulgarian society and Bulgarian urban society. We are all of peasant origin. All of us, our parents, were peasants until 30 or 40 years ago. Bulgarians living in the cities do not have social roots because of this migration has left them with one leg in the village, the other in the city. They do not have a social identity and they are much more susceptible to influences from one or the other side. This is the second reason.

The first reason is that the intellectuals live in the cities–they are much more radical than other people. They were the people who suffered most under the last regime and are much more prepared to oppose what they see in the Socialist party as a remnant of the former Communist party. We were careful during our campaign not to make promises that could not be fulfilled. This was a policy of the party clearly set forth before the elections started.

I think the reason for this division lies in some mistakes that the opposition made during the campaign. One of the reasons was the very quick anti-Communization of the opposition. The Communist idea, not in its aggressive form, but in its form of social justice, has very deep roots in this country and I think the election results show this. The moving of the opposition towards anti-Communism scared many people that there might be a witch hunt after the election as the opposition tried to settle old scores. One of the major pre-election topics was the repression in Bulgaria immediately after the war and in the 1940s and 1950s. They started digging up old graves, etc. There was this sinister side of the opposition that some of the electorate saw.

Then, one of their mistakes was the demonstration of anti-Sovietism. Bulgaria is quite unlike other countries in Eastern Europe in that anti-Sovietism has very little influence in this country because of historical and traditional reasons. This also made a section of the electorate careful of the opposition.

But the major mistake of the opposition in the countryside was their attitude toward the agrarian issue and reform. The agrarian policy of the opposition was that, when they came to office, they would abolish cooperative and return land to the previous owners of the 1940s and 1950s. Which, if it happened, would have left a lot of people landless. Many of the people in the villages have their prosperity because of the cooperative farms: they were very poor before that. The opposition tried to use some major deficiencies of the previous system in agriculture connected with the concentration of agriculture in large units which did not work. But this only happened in the last 12-16 years. Before that, cooperative farms were doing quite well and people saw that they were doing well and were happy. So this fear that if the opposition came into office, things would return to the 1940s and 1950s was the major factor that influenced the choice of these people. The opposition made this mistake and I could understand it as I watched them. One of their major elements is the Agrarian Union of Nikolai Petrov which was abolished in the 1940s–it was the opposition after the war. This party was using policies from the 1940s that were already outmoded. But the opposition could not do anything because the Agrarian Union was a major component and they had to rely on it.

I read recently in Duma what seemed to be an editorial–it wasn’t identified. Actually, it was quite disturbing. To use the English expression, it played the nationalist card, talking about bringing impure influences into the Motherland. Granted, the opposition has also played the nationalist card, but perhaps you could explain why the Socialist Party used this tactic?

The national issue is very sensitive as you probably realize. It has two aspects. One aspect is the fate of Bulgarians outside present day borders of Bulgaria. Ever since its inception in the last century, Bulgaria’s territory has been shrinking, because of war, etc. The nationalist cause has always been a very important issue in Bulgaria. Nationalism made Bulgaria fight four wars until the Second World War and lost all of them. A lot of Bulgarians remained outside the borders. After WWII, when the Communist Party came into office, because of internationalism, the nationalist idea was forbidden and it did not have any public existence. Because of this, Bulgaria has never shown any concern for Bulgarians living abroad: many people were assimilated into the surrounding countries. You know, perhaps, the Macedonian issue. Yugoslavia has used this issue in order to try to exercise influence on Bulgaria–connected with Bulgarians living in southwestern Bulgaria, the smallest part of Macedonia which remained inside Bulgaria after the Second Balkan War. While Yugoslavia has not allowed any Bulgarian national identity to become public in Yugoslavia and during the last 45 years, Bulgaria has been totally silent on these issues. Now, for the first time, we are talking about these issues and this is interpreted as nationalism, especially on the part of Yugoslavia.

The other aspect of the national issue is of course the ethnic issue in Bulgaria connected to Turks. You are aware of the previous policy of Zhivkov of name-changes, trying to assimilate them, which was perhaps one of his greatest crimes as the leader of this country. It is also sensitive because as a reaction to this policy of Zhivkov, Turkish nationalist organizations have come into existence in this country. Among many politicians, including on the opposition side, there is a suspicion that the organization that elected members of parliament from the Turkish areas, has very clear Turkish nationalist connotations. the coming into existence of these Turkish nationalist organizations. The name of this movement: the movement for Freedom and Human Rights–they claim that they are not a movement based on ethnic origin but rather that they work for the freedom and human rights of all. But if one looks at where they campaign and hears their speeches, it is doubtless that they are a movement based on ethnic origin of its members. So this movement causes another reaction on the Bulgarian side which also starts to organize on an ethnic, nationalistic basis. I think this is one of the most explosive issues because this movement cannot be viewed outside of the context of Bulgarian-Turkish relations, what Turkey does to encourage this movement. There is also the fear that this movement might put up the question of autonomy in this country, which might be encouraged by Turkey. We are very aware of Turkish policies in the last 20-25 years in Cyprus. So, it is a very touchy issue for everybody. And as far as I understand, there is some sort of unanimity between ourselves and the opposition: that this issue should not be exploited for political gain. Although, initially, the opposition in December and January exploited the issue for political ends. But then they realized very soon that this was not bringing them the results they expected.

Obviously I expect a nationalist reaction to a call for Turkish rights. But I wonder about the location of that impulse within the Socialist Party, a party that has been and I assume still is, committed to a form of internationalism.

Well, especially on the ethnic issue in Bulgaria, I think we should go a different way. We shouldn’t go the way of securing human rights for Turks; we should secure human rights for everybody. Everybody has human rights, Turks also have human rights. Even in the European context of the CSCE, this has been one of the trends. This is the only way not to put emphasis on ethnic or national question. If one goes in another direction, inevitably the issue will come to the division of borders which would be very destabilizing.

Let’s turn to economic reform. You mentioned earlier the borrowing from the neo-conservative tradition. I find this odd: you might even call it an unholy marriage.

I mentioned neo-conservatism, but it is this way only if you look at the surface of the development. We are in the position when the state has total control of the economy and we want to reduce and broadly eliminate this government control. This is, of course, the market economy which we are trying to introduce. In this way, it has something to do with neo-conservatism which claimed that it was reducing government control. We need to create a market economy with equal opportunities for all kinds of property ownership, public, cooperative, private. The opposition puts the emphasis on the private. We think that after so many years of totalitarian rule, various types of property ownership should be encouraged to compete between each other: and this kind of competition will show which is most efficient. We needn’t go the same way that the Communist Party did after the war by claiming that only government or public ownership that is good. We have to let economic forces work and see what happens.

We are for the market economy. But, being socialist compels us to think about the social factors and realizing that this transition will be very difficult for the majority perhaps of this country, even for those people who will not lose their jobs but will have to change work under the new conditions. We feel that the government and the state should adopt a policy of securing some social guarantees for these people. We are in a very strange situation. We are neither socialist nor capitalist. There is no capital market, for instance: there is no capital! A period of initial accumulation of capital will take place here and we do not want it to resemble the period of initial accumulation of capital in the West 300 years ago. We have to avoid this wild capitalism before becoming a modern country.

Well, it sounds good. But on specific economic issues, for instance indexation, the BSP took what could be called a hardline austerity position, the previously official trade union called for 100 per cent and Podkrepa came in the middle. It seems to my mind that the party’s conception of reform and the reform of the neo-conservatives goes beyond mere surface comparisons.

Well, I think, this policy of the Socialist government is that we have to work with what we have. Perhaps nobody accuses the Mazowiecki government in Poland that is introducing the austerity program. I am sure that if the opposition had been in office in this country, the situation would be the same. Because we must operate with the resources that we have. All the appeals for 100 per cent indexation I think are just the result of not being aware of the economic situation or perhaps political propaganda. It is of course very difficult to apply what we claiming as a policy because of the economic state of the country. We have to find the dividing line between social measures and letting the country accumulate capital necessary for setting the economy into motion again. One of the reasons for the economic situation we are in–aside from the incompetent economic policies of the previous governments–is the total collapse of the economic system and economic structures that the Bulgarian economy was geared to. We were linked to the Soviet Union and Comecon and now all of this has disappeared. And by the way this linkage was working quite well until 10 years ago because Bulgaria had the two major factors that an economy must have: raw materials and secure markets. Now the collapse of this structure is perhaps the first major reason for the collapse of the Bulgarian economy. So, lack of resources and lack of capital now is the major problem for our economy. Bulgaria has the infrastructure and the enterprises but they are simply not working because they have nothing to work with. If we can generate the capital and resources, the coming out of the crisis won’t be far away.

Recently, the opposition has begun giving away food in the square. I would have thought that the BSP might have initiated such activity.

It is question that is difficult to answer. Perhaps we have lost the tradition of charity and nobody thought about it. I don’t know whether it is the opposition or some private charity. Nobody thought about this. Nobody realized that there were so many poor people who wanted to have some soup.

Some say that the members of the former nomenklatura, for political reasons, should be condemned. Others say, for economic reasons, they should be encouraged to find a place in the new system to ensure stability. Do you have this phenomenon of “red capitalism” in Bulgaria?

There is much talk about this, and perhaps there are cases of this. Though I am very careful about using the term “nomenklatura” because it implies that anybody who has been in any sort of position in the previous regime is “nomenklatura” and he or she must be ostracized. But the system in this country, and in other countries in Eastern Europe, the governing party, because it was the only party and was the only way of securing a career, attracted very competent people. The majority of competent people involved in the economy are still members of the Socialist party. So, eliminating all these people from public and economic life would be bad for the country. There are many examples. Take a restaurant manager, for example. Three years ago, the government started renting these restaurants to people to build a franchise. Many of them starting doing much better than when they were government. The same people were doing the job. Which shows that it is not the personalities: it is a matter of the system, of organization, of incentives. So I wouldn’t support a policy that would be aimed at eliminating people who have done things in the past regime simply on political grounds. I have the feeling that appeals like these come from people who either have been unable to succeed under the previous system because of lack of personal qualities, for example and they think by eliminating these people they will have a better chance. From a national point of view, it is better to let everybody who is capable and enterprising to do whatever they like, regardless of whether they were involved in the previous regime. I wonder why we are not using the experience of countries like Spain, for example, where they signed this pact among all political parties. They tried not to rake over the past, or bring up the past every time they had a dispute. They tried to look into the future and this worked quite well. Here, in Bulgaria, we are much more vindictive and preoccupied with the past. Although we know the future is grim, we are still not thinking about the future.

Syria: the Charade of Humanitarian Intervention

Cross-posted from and ips-dc.

Assad SyriaI continue to be amazed with the ease with which the dividing line is blurred between what is real and what is fiction in the reporting on Syria by the Western media. The press in the U.S. continues to dutifully report on the “objective diplomacy” by the Obama administration to broker a “peaceful” resolution to the conflict in Syria. However, those stories of noble and innocent efforts to avert the catastrophic human suffering that has eventually engulfed Syria has sanitized the bloody complicity of U.S. policy. Diplomacy, for the U.S., has meant calling for regime change from the outset and then encouraging Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Israel, their client states in the region, to arm, train and provide political support for a military campaign with the objective of effectively dismembering the Syrian state.

Two years later, with tens of thousands killed, millions uprooted and the delicate social fabric of the country shredded by sectarian brutality, the next phase in the propaganda war leading to more direct intervention by the West to finish off the regime is being organized in the form of a peace conference scheduled to take place in June.

Co-sponsored by Russia with a stake in maintaining the integrity of the Syrian state, the U.S. approach to the conference, however, gives the impression that the gathering is a charade meant to mollify those elements in the U.S. Congress and public still hesitant to support another expensive military adventure. The U.S. demand that a peaceful solution to the conflict is predicated on a “transitional government” being established in which Assad should play no role, means effectively that there will be no serious attempt to resolve the conflict short of regime change and the surrendering of Syrian sovereignty. The U.S. position also confirms the real objective of the conference which is to justify more direct military intervention by the U.S. once the conference “fails” to bring peace.

While this is absolutely clear for many people around the world, the U.S. public, along with much of what used to be called the progressive and/or radical sectors, continue to be hoodwinked by some of the most crude and obvious manipulation I have ever witnessed. It was precisely the smooth efficiency with which the public was being manipulated that motivated me to write an earlier article on Syria that attempted to offer an explanation for the reasons why U.S. State propagandists, and I include the mainstream media in this category, have been so successful in confusing the general public and dividing the anti-war, anti-imperialist movement.

I believe part of their success has been due to the fact that they have used the concept of humanitarian intervention as one of their main tools. In my article, I made the argument that humanitarian intervention, along with the concept of the “right to protect” (R2P), has developed into the most effective ideological weapon the liberal human rights community provided Western imperialism since the fall of the Soviet State. Humanitarian intervention has proven to be an even more valuable propaganda tool than the “war on terror,” because as the situation in Libya and now Syria has demonstrated, it provides a moral justification for imperialist intervention that can also accommodate the presence of the same “terrorist” forces the U.S. pretends to be opposed to. And of course, in the eyes of the U.S. government, tyrannical and dictatorial governments that need to be deposed are only those that present an obstacle to the realization of U.S. geo/political interests—never those paragons of freedom and morality like Saudi Arabia and Israel.

As I said in my earlier article:

Humanitarian intervention provided the U.S. State the perfect ideological cover and internal rationalization to continue as the global “gendarme” of the capitalist order. By providing the human rights rationale for the assertion that the “international community” had a moral and legal responsibility to protect a threatened people, mainstream human rights activists effectuated a shift in the discourse on international human rights that moved the R2P assertion from a contested legal and moral augment to a common-sense assumption. And because of their limited perspective, it did not occur to any of these theoreticians that what they propagated was a thinly updated version of the “white man’s burden.” The NATO intervention in Bosnia and Kosovo, the assault on Iraq to “save” the Iraqi people from Saddam Hussein, and most recently the NATO attack on Libya that brought to power a rag-tag assortment of anti-African racists, have solidified the idea among many in the U.S. that humanitarian intervention to protect human rights through aggressive war is justifiable. The consequence of this for U.S. policy makers and for the likely targets of U.S. aggression in the global South is that if properly framed, war could be moved back to the center of strategic options without much fear of a backlash from the American people—a development especially important for a declining power that appears to have concluded that it will use military means to attempt to maintain its global empire.

The propagandists of the U.S. war strategy have been spectacularly successful in inculcating this shift in consciousness in the general population and the self-muting of the anti-war and anti-imperialist movements in the West, with the exception of a few organizations. The assertion of the right to unilaterally attack any state that it deems unfit for sovereignty is not a new articulation of white supremacist, imperialist ideology but in this current period where there are few constraints on the global exercise of “White power,” the internalization of this position by the European and U.S. publics, irrespective of ethnicity or race, has made the world a much more dangerous place for Black and Brown people: 50,000 killed in Libya, 80,000 in Syria, 1,000,000 in Iraq, and 30,000 in Afghanistan.

The normalization of war as a contemporary expression of the West’s responsibility to bring liberal democracy and capitalist freedom to the non-white hordes, and the fact that most of the people being killed in the process of “being saved” by the West are non-European, is a graphic confirmation of the white supremacist assumptions of humanitarian intervention. The people being “saved” by the West are framed as people who would embrace the Western way of life if given a choice. That is why Madeline Albright could say with a straight face that the “price was worth it” in response to the 500,000 children that died in Iraq as a result of U.S. sanctions.

So as the U.S. government prepares to wage war in Syria, the imperative for all of us who believe in peace and fundamental human rights is to attempt to persuade as many people as possible to choose peace instead of the war objectives of the 1%. The Syrian government has a significant social base that is made up of Alawites, Druze, Christians and significant numbers of Sunnis who fear the takeover of the country by Islamic fundamentalists. This is a fact that is being hidden from the public in the U.S. Those in the U.S. who would like to see an end to the bloodshed in Syria, and I believe that is the majority of people, should call on their representatives to support real initiatives for peace that respect the sovereignty of Syria and the desires of all of the people in that country.

But really what the people of Syria and the world want and many have demanded, is for the U.S. and its Western allies – the minority who make up 10% of the world but pretend to be the world – to intervene into their own societies who are experiencing their own humanitarian crisis brought on by a moribund capitalism and leave the rest of the world alone.

Ajamu Baraka was the founding Director of the US Human Rights Network. Baraka is currently an Associate Fellow at the Institute for Policy Studies and is editing a new book on human rights in the U.S. entitled “The Struggle for a People-Centered Human Rights: Voices from the Field.” He can be reached at

Emphasis Added: The Foreign Policy Week in Pieces (6/10)

This Will Hurt Me More Than It Does You

What are the potential effects on the global economy of U.S. actions against Iran? … the rough effects of U.S. action against Iran on the global economy – measured only in the first three months of actualization – to range from total losses of approximately $60 billion on one end of the scale to more than $2 trillion to the world economy on the other end.

War with Iran? Revisiting the Potentially Staggering Costs to the Global Economy, Charles Blair, FAS Strategic Security Blog

Beyond Recognition

Raymond brought up the telephone conversation in which [his son] had hinted that he might have shot a child in Iraq. He said, “It’s just like I told him, ‘I need you back.’ And then when he gets back I ain’t got my son no more. I got a body that looks like my son. But that ain’t my son. And that’s what the people don’t understand from the V.A. And that’s what I told them down there, too. ‘I don’t want this. I want my son back.’

In the Crosshairs, Nicholas Schmidle, the New Yorker

Assad Government on Its Last Legs “Something of a Myth”

Assad isn’t going to win a total victory, but the opposition isn’t anywhere close to overthrowing him either. This is worth stressing because Western politicians and journalists so frequently take it for granted that the regime is entering its last days. A justification for the British and French argument that the EU embargo on arms deliveries to the rebels should be lifted – a plan first mooted in March but strongly opposed by other EU members – is that these extra weapons will finally tip the balance decisively against Assad. The evidence from Syria itself is that more weapons will simply mean more dead and wounded.

Is it the end of Sykes-Picot?, Patrick Cockburn, the London Review of Books

What’s Another City Left for Dead?

Over the last twenty years, increasing access to records in Japan, Russia, and the United States has revealed that in the three days follow­ing the bombing of Hiroshima Japan’s leaders had little idea that they had to surrender as a result of the bombings. … The Foreign Minister, Togo Shigenori, actually suggested convening the Supreme Council two days after the bombing of Hiroshima to discuss it and found he could not generate enough interest on the subject to get it on the agenda.

Rethinking the Utility of Nuclear Weapons, Ward Wilson, Parameters

Turkey’s Putin

ErdoÄŸan’s Turkey is also the scene of an ominous and increasingly bitter political battle, where there is constant talk of coups and counter-coups. In 2007, ErdoÄŸan began a series of investigations of his enemies that reveal a repressiveness and paranoia that belie his international reputation as a reliable moderate. The strategy seems designed to secure his hold on power for years to come.

The Deep State, Dexter Filkins, the New Yorker

Even Sensenbrenner Has a Rubicon

On Thursday, Representative Jim Sensenbrenner, Republican of Wisconsin, who introduced the Patriot Act in 2001, said that the National Security Agency overstepped its bounds by obtaining a secret order to collect phone log records from millions of Americans.

“As the author of the Patriot Act, I am extremely troubled by the F.B.I.’s interpretation of this legislation,” he said in a statement. “While I believe the Patriot Act appropriately balanced national security concerns and civil rights, I have always worried about potential abuses.” He added: “Seizing phone records of millions of innocent people is excessive and un-American.”

President Obama’s Dragnet, Editorial, the New York Times

Nuclear Missile Wing’s “Sagging Morale” Has an Upside

Nuclear launch capsule

Nuclear launch capsule

Following up on his story of the17 launch crew members of the 91st Missile Wing at Minot Air Force Base, N.D., who were removed from active duty, Robert Burns of the Associated Press reports:

“Officers with a finger on the trigger of the Air Force’s most powerful nuclear missiles are complaining of a wide array of morale-sapping pressures, according to internal emails obtained by The Associated Press.

“… Key themes among the complaints include working under ‘poor leadership’ and being stuck in “dead-end careers” in nuclear weapons, one email said. … The complaints also said there was a need for more experienced missile officers, a less arduous work schedule and ‘leaders who will listen.’

“Taken together, the complaints suggest sagging morale in arguably the most sensitive segment of the American military.”

Obviously, in

… the nuclear missile business, morale is not a trivial matter. Mental state is treated as a vital sign — like physical health, criminal record and technical knowhow — that must be monitored to indicate whether an individual is fit to be trusted with weapons of such destructive power.

Revisiting a key reason for “sagging morale”

… the shrinking role and size of the U.S. nuclear force and, consequently, a reduced sense of purpose among launch crews who do 24-hour shifts in control centers buried deep below ground.

Bear in mind, says Hans Kristensen of the Federation of American Scientists in a quote:

“You can’t take away the fact that the mission they sit and wait for” — to launch a nuclear attack — “is very unlikely to ever happen,”

Catch the implication? Apparently, what the sensitive psyches of “missileers” require to feel needed is the opportunity to start the launch sequence for any or all of the 150 nuclear-armed ICBMs they control at Minot.

In other words, when it comes to their mental health, wouldn’t we rather have missileers “sit in a hole in the Midwest and wait for nothing” (in Kristensen’s words) – no matter how depressed — than be cheerful sociopaths waiting for a chance to light up the world?

Erdogan’s Iron Fist

ErdoganOn Monday May 27th, about 100 activists in Istanbul staged a sit-in at Gezi Park, the last bit of green space in a largely commercial area, in order to protest the uprooting of its nearly 600 trees to make way for a restored Ottoman army barracks and a shopping mall.

This is part of Prime Minister Erdogan’s urban redevelopment project of Taksim Square, to which Gezi Park is adjacent. Protestors succeeded in peacefully halting the razing until the end of the week, when police began to fire tear gas canisters at them. By Friday, tens of thousands of leftists, other opposition members, and even members of Erdogan’s own party joined the protestors, outraged by the brutal and disproportionate behavior of the police.

Protests escalated and spread quickly, and were met with an enormous demonstration of force from police, who used tear gas, water cannons, and rubber bullets. While most protests have been nonviolent, some protestors have resorted to violence to express their grievances, turning what were peaceful demonstrations into riots on a scale unseen during Erdogan’s tenure. Since Friday, protests have spread to 67 of Turkey’s provinces. The over three million participating protesters represent a wide spectrum of ideologies, walks of life, and religious sects.


Protecting the park is only the tip of the iceberg. Beneath the surface lurks a deep frustration over the democratically elected Erdogan’s increasingly authoritarian and conservative Islamist regime. Turkish citizens are angry at the government’s lack of transparency and frustrated that Erdogan does not consult them before making decisions—like the privatization of public space and the razing of Gezi Park—and going ahead with their implementation. This paternalistic style was exemplified when Erdogan stated last week that the protesters could do whatever they wanted, but the government made a decision and would carry it out. He demonstrates a lack of interest in engaging in meaningful dialogue with those who do not share his views, evincing an attitude of “it’s my way or the highway.”

Citizens have a wide range of grievances—from the new laws restricting abortion and the sale of alcohol to the ban on kissing in public—but what the various parties have in common is the sense that they are not being listened to, that they are living in a hollow democracy. Turkey has become a country where the media self-censors, peaceful demonstrators and dissenters are prosecuted on the absurd grounds of membership in terrorist organizations, and a majority rules over, and not in collaboration with, a minority. These demonstrations have no single explicit political agenda; they are an expression of deep anger.

Erdogan’s Response

Last weekend, Erdogan acknowledged that in some instances police behavior towards protesters was extreme, but that seemed as far as he was willing to go. He has made numerous statements accusing the main opposition Republican People’s Party (CHP) of using the redevelopment of Gezi Park as a tool to provoke citizens into rioting as a means of furthering their own ideological agenda. He has also blamed protests on both domestic and foreign extremist groups aiming to bring down his government.

Erdogan continues to display this hubris, and in the midst of the worst protests during his decade in power, he has gone on a poorly timed (or perhaps perfectly timed, as far as he is concerned) visit to North Africa, leaving other, more conciliatory-minded government officials to deal with the issue, despite the fact that the riots are increasingly aimed against Erdogan himself.

President Gul’s Response

Turkish President Abdullah Gul has butted heads with Erdogan, who appears to think that free and fair elections are the lone component of a true democracy. Gul, on the other hand, has insisted that “Democracy does not mean elections alone. There can be nothing more natural for the expression of various views, various situations and objections through a variety of ways besides elections,” he added, praising peaceful protestors for exercising their democratic rights.

Upon hearing of these comments, Erdogan responded, “I don’t know what the president said, but for me democracy is all about the ballot box.” The term-limited Erdogan and Gul are expected to face off for the presidency in Turkey’s next election. Erdogan may have strong support from religious conservatives, but in light of recent events and his not-so-subtle efforts to assign more power to the presidential position he is seeking, we will see how his version of democracy plays out for him at the ballot box.

Sarah Gold is an intern at Foreign Policy in Focus.

Czechoslovakia’s Velvet Divorce

As is the case with most divorces, the “children” — Czechs and Slovaks — were not consulted.

Cross-posted from John is currently traveling in Eastern Europe and observing its transformations since 1989.

Former Czech President Václav Klaus

Former Czech President Václav Klaus

It’s been 20 years since Czechoslovakia split apart. The divorce took place without violence and without a referendum. The two leaders – Vaclav Klaus from the Czech side and Vladimir Meciar from the Slovak side – decided along with their respective political advisors that it was best for their countries to part ways. This was a decision made exclusively by the parental authorities. As is the case with most divorces, the “children” were not consulted.

In 2013, as I travelled for several weeks in both countries, I encountered somewhat different perspectives on this “velvet divorce” that followed several years after the famed “velvet revolution” of 1989.

The first person I encountered in Slovakia, on the train into the capital of Bratislava, told me that she had no regrets about the dissolution of the country of her birth. She’d been born on the Czech side, her mother Czech and her father Slovak. Under communism, her parents applied for apartments and the one in Bratislava came through first. The division of the country divided their family. Even if they wanted to, they couldn’t move to the Czech Republic in those days, because they would have been treated as foreigners. There was no automatic citizenship offered on both sides. Only later came an option for dual citizenship, but by then it was too late.

She wasn’t happy with the situation in Slovakia. Her salary was low, and taxes were high. She complained that people only cared about money. She spoke Czech, had been offered a job reassignment to Prague. But she wouldn’t leave Bratislava.

When I asked her about the division of the country in 1993, she was vehement. The Czech Republic had been basically ripping off the Slovaks, taking in more revenue than it was disbursing. She insisted that no one in Slovakia had second thoughts about the velvet divorce.

And indeed, I didn’t meet anyone during my stay in the country who wanted to revisit that decision, even as they pointed out the disadvantages that Slovakia continued to suffer. Nearly eight times the number of tourists visit the Czech Republic, thanks to the international reputation of Prague and spa towns like Karlovy Vary. Bratislava doesn’t even have a major airport, for it relies on nearby Vienna. Everyone reads Kafka and Kundera, but Slovak literature doesn’t boast such major figures. When mention is made of the Velvet Revolution, it is of Prague, of Wenceslaus Square, of Vaclav Havel. Slovak contributions are slighted, and Slovaks often grumble in private about a certain Czech condescension, born of greater economic prosperity and international reputation.

But Slovakia is an independent country, with a distinct history and culture, and of that Slovaks are very proud.

In the Czech Republic, on the other hand, I encountered a certain wistfulness for the shared past. “I miss Czechoslovakia,” one prominent former dissident told me. And while another former dissident assured me that this was only nostalgia for a bigger country and easier access to the Tatra Mountains in northern Slovakia, I detected something else. “Czechoslovakia” meant something special. In the 1920s and 1930s, under the famous Czech politician Tomas Masaryk, the new country held onto its democratic institutions even as other, older countries drifted toward fanaticism. It stood up to the Nazis and later, in 1968, to the Soviets as well under the leadership of Alexander Dubcek, a Slovak. Czechoslovakia was more than just a country. It was a symbol. Polls in 1993 suggested that a majority of Czechs didn’t want to see the country break up, and some of that sentiment obviously remains.

Today, the two architects of the divorce have watched their political careers go into eclipse. In the Czech Republic, Vaclav Havel, who was cool to the split, remains an icon, and the Prague airport is now named for him. Vaclav Klaus will not likely be accorded such honors. If he weren’t reviled for his arrogant personality or the disasters his economic reforms have engendered, the outgoing Czech president would still deserve universal opprobrium for the recent amnesty that he declared, which blindsided even politicians in his own party.

On the fact of it, the amnesty seems reasonable as it applies to prisoners over the age of 75 and those serving terms of less than year. But critics point to a clause that provides for the cancellation of any legal case that has gone on for more than eight years, which effectively ends the prosecution of many important financial fraud cases. Klaus, who once declared that there is no such thing as dirty money, is effectively pardoning those accused of the worst excesses of crony capitalism. This week, in response to this amnesty, the Czech Senate impeached Klaus. He’s leaving office anyway at the beginning of March to make way for the newly elected Social Democratic Party leader Milos Zeman. But impeachment would render Klaus ineligible to run again or to draw a presidential pension.

Meanwhile, during those first years of independence, Vladimir Meciar guided Slovakia into an interlude of authoritarian nationalism that elicited the condemnation of the international community and generated a reinvigorated civic movement devoted to dethroning him. They accomplished that feat in 1998, and since then Meciar has drifted into obscurity. His party no longer garners enough votes to get into parliament. It’s not likely that anything, except perhaps a toxic waste dump, would be named after Vladimir Meciar.

The Czech Republic and Slovakia currently enjoy a relationship that should be the envy of any two neighboring countries. The prime ministers maintain good contact. The two countries engage in joint infrastructure projects and provide joint military units for NATO operations. There remains a high level of intermarriage, and there is much shared culture. Geopolitics has never witnessed such an amicable divorce.

This velvet divorce might not have been the most democratically orchestrated event in history. The leaders who executed the decision have seen their political careers take a nosedive. And the two sides might well look at the results very differently. But Czechoslovakia, though it no longer exists, remains a symbol of courageous resistance and sensible conflict resolution. It’s a legacy of which the offspring of these hyphenated parents can be proud.

Erdogan Goes All Robert Moses on Istanbul

turkish protestorsIn the New York Times, Tim Arango reports from Istanbul

“Across this vast city, a capital for three former empires, cranes dangle over construction sites, tin walls barricade old slums, and skyscrapers outclimb the mosque minarets that have dominated the skyline for centuries — all a vanguard for more audacious projects already in the works.

“For many Turks, though, the development is not so much progress as a reflection of growing autocratic ambitions by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his government.”

Demonstrations in which construction equipment has been attacked were spurred by

A government plan to convert Taksim Square, historically a place of public gathering, into a replica Ottoman-era army barracks and shopping mall — what [a] historian, called “a Las Vegas of Ottoman splendor”. … But there are many other contentious projects that have drawn public outrage.

Arango, with an insightfulness a cut above the usual Times article, reports:

The swiftly changing physical landscape of Istanbul symbolizes the competing themes that undergird modern Turkey — Islam versus secularism, rural versus urban. They highlight a booming economy and a self-confidence expressed by the religiously conservative ruling elite.

He then writes of Dogan Kuban, who he calls “perhaps Istanbul’s foremost urban historian.”

He criticized the government for ignoring the country’s pre-Islamic history by not protecting certain archaeological sites and structures, an issue he cast as highlighting Turkey’s turn away from Western culture under Mr. Erdogan’s rule.

Erdogan’s behavior is reminiscent of Robert Moses, New York City’s “master builder,” who, with little or no input from legislatures, carried out development and infrastructure projects that often impacted aversely on neighborhoods.

Would that Americans rose up against an autocratic executive branch. Would that we Americans stood in the way of rampaging development — not to mention general tackiness — like the Turks have.

Syrian Rebels Doing Best They Can to Alienate Supporters

Syrian rebels-aleppoIt’s bad enough that it’s starting to look like Bashar al-Assad won’t be ousted from Syria anytime soon. What’s worse is that even were the rebels to win, the way they’ve been conducting the war suggests their reign wouldn’t be markedly different from Assad’s. In gaining the upper hand, the heart-eaters have compromised the uprising’s values and jeopardized its success.

No one explains this better than a commentator who goes by the name of Edwin Dark in a piece titled How We Lost the Syrian Revolution. We’re excerpting salient passages in hopes of directing you to Al Monitor to read the piece in its entirety. Dark (a pseudonym) begins:

So what went wrong? Or to be more accurate, where did we go wrong? How did a once inspirational and noble popular uprising calling for freedom and basic human rights degenerate into an orgy of bloodthirsty sectarian violence, with depravity unfit for even animals?

He elaborates (emphasis added).

… what we saw on the ground when the rebel fighters entered Aleppo was a far different reality. … To us, a rebel fighting against tyranny doesn’t commit the same sort of crimes as the regime he’s supposed to be fighting against. He doesn’t loot the homes, businesses and communities of the people he’s supposed to be fighting for. [They] would even kidnap for ransom and execute anyone they pleased. …. They would incessantly shell residential civilian neighborhoods under regime control … their snipers routinely killing in cold blood unsuspecting passersby. … tens of thousands became destitute and homeless in this once bustling, thriving and rich commercial metropolis.

As a former rebel himself, Dark asks “So who was ‘us’”?

… the civil grassroots opposition movement in Aleppo, who for months were organizing peaceful protests and handing out aid at considerable danger and risk to our own lives. “We” truly believed in the higher ideals of social and political change, and tried to. … model ourselves on the civil rights movement of the US in the 1960s, Mandela’s struggle against apartheid, and the teachings of Gandhi: precisely what similar civil movements in other Arab Spring countries such as Tunisia and Egypt had done before.

In other words, “we mostly came from the educated urban middle class of the city,” while the rebels were

… the underprivileged rural class who … were out for revenge against the perceived injustices of years past. Their motivation wasn’t like ours, it was not to seek freedom, democracy or justice for the entire nation, it was simply unbridled hatred and vengeance. … Add to that terrible fray, the extremist Islamists and their open association with Al-Qaeda and their horrific plans for the future of our nation, and you can guess what the atmosphere over here felt like: a stifling primordial fear, a mixture of terror and despair.

‘Twas ever thus, the educated element elbowed aside by those driven by revenge rather than replacing tyranny with a just system. Sympathizers are repulsed and the rebellion loses, or it manages to win but reigns like those they drove out.

Six Reasons to Oppose John Kerry’s $4 Billion Plan for the Palestinians

The charade of “generous offers” to the Palestinians.

Secretary of State Kerry, Israeli President Peres, and Palestinian President Abbas.

Secretary of State Kerry, Israeli President Peres, and Palestinian President Abbas.

I often feel I’m in an Orwellian dystopia when I read news headlines involving Palestine or Israel. Here’s one: “John Kerry Reveals $4 Billion Plan To Boost The Economy . . . For The Palestinians.”

As someone who worked on development in the West Bank and Gaza Strip for several years, I saw immediately how this would harm Palestinians and peace. This persistently inaccurate portrayal of the situation fools well-meaning Americans into supporting occupation and apartheid.

We can all agree on this: at Sunday’s World Economic Forum in Jordan, Secretary of State Kerry met with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and Israeli President Shimon Peres. Kerry presented a plan (led by Tony Blair) “potentially worth $4 billion” in foreign investment which he said “could expand the Palestinian economy by up to 50 percent in the next three years” and “could also cut unemployment by almost two-thirds.” But Kerry’s caveat was: “[i]t all depends on parallel progress on peace between Israel and the Palestinians.” [Emphasis added.]

Perhaps he meant further conflict would retard economic growth, but it sounds more like political conditions. Whether good or bad, one thing is clear: few details were offered.

The entire transcript of the speech can be found on the State Department’s website, followed by the main points of contention:

A) Most Palestinians won’t benefit!

If past behavior of the US government, particularly USAID, and large international investment agencies is any guide, we can predict the results of such a plan. The $4 billion would not benefit most Palestinians – primarily just expats working at USAID and similar large IGOs, and secondarily a small class of Ramallah-ites.

Indeed, the plan could force Palestinians into a dependent relationship and prevent self-sufficiency. A common complaint of Palestinians is that their people have been “reduced to beggars.” They live in a big cage and know their country’s economy is subject to the whims of foreign donors.

B) The West Bank economy would become further stratified between the north, central, and south, (not to mention against Gaza), which is what Israeli hawks want (to divide and conquer). 

Kerry’s plan would likely favor those in Ramallah, the central West Bank city where nearly all international development organizations’ offices reside.

Within the West Bank economy, some in Ramallah now are doing quite well while those in the north (Jenin, Qalqilya, Tulkarem) and the south (Hebron and Bethlehem) are really struggling, with unemployment rates in the 20% range. We can expect more of the same from such a plan.

C) “Bigger than Oslo”? Since when is more apartheid a good thing?

Kerry presented this as “a plan for the Palestinian economy that is bigger, bolder and more ambitious than anything proposed since Oslo.”

That sounds like, “If you liked a plan promising independence in 5 years but delivering apartheid and entrenched occupation over 20 years, you’ll love our next idea!”

The 1993 Oslo Accords laid the groundwork for apartheid. This is clear in the bizarre interim arrangement of governing the West Bank with Areas A, B, and C. Area A districts, the only “fully” under Palestinian control, are considered bantustans: they are non-contiguous, separated by Israeli settlements, military bases and checkpoints, and travel between them or into Israel is severely restricted.

If this $4 billion plan were implemented, it would be like the small disaster of Oslo in that desperate Palestinians would be accepting crumbs from their oppressors in exchange for a deepened system of control over their lives. Abbas is desperate to regain credibility with his own people – and to continue receiving US aid over and under the table in exchange for being a puppet leader.

D) At best, Kerry wants others to continue financing whatever the US helps destroy.

$4B is far less than the amount the US gives Israel annually, of which $3B is military aid, used to destroy farmland, install checkpoints, and other economy-destroying practices.

E) This inherent political manipulation in this plan would subvert the democratic will of the Palestinian people.

USAID has consistently used funds for obvious political manipulation, such as its eagerness to prop up the Fatah party and weaken Hamas by withdrawing funds to the Gaza Strip in 2007 (when Hamas took over) and funneling funds into Abbas’ public works.

Despites Kerry’s promises (“This group will make recommendations to the Palestinians. They’re not going to decide anything. The Palestinians will decide that in their normal course of governance”), history indicates that political conditions will be attached and followed by those seeking more future aid. These interventions usually yield undesirable governance in terms of freedom and peace.

F) Lastly, this plan is clearly disingenuous since the occupation is the problem, not just Palestinians lacking economic opportunity.

A diseased economy is merely a symptom of a military occupation and apartheid regime – this makes Palestinians more miserable but it does not destroy their reason for resisting.

**Don’t Believe the Hype** Even an idealistic 50% increase in Palestinian GDP and alleged lowered unemployment would really only benefit a few, the shameful, the sell-outs!

Lyndi Borne is a media intern at the Institute for Policy Studies.

Restoring Slovenia’s Erased

Cross-posted from John is currently traveling in Eastern Europe and observing its transformations since 1989.

Neza Kogovsek Salamon, head of the Peace Institute of Slovenia

Neza Kogovsek Salamon, head of the Peace Institute of Slovenia

It took two decades, but the Erased finally got their day in court. And the court ruled in their favor.

On June 26, 2012, the European Court of Human Rights upheld a lower court ruling that Slovenia had violated the European Convention on Human Rights in its treatment of the roughly 25,000 people stripped of residency in the wake of the country’s independence. The Grand Chamber ruled that, among other things, Slovenia discriminated against former Yugoslav nationals (in comparison to other resident aliens). The ruling also mandated that Slovenia pay compensation to the group that has come to be known as the Erased.

The Erasure took place in 1992. The first organization of the Erased was founded in 2002. And now, after a half dozen years of legal battle, victory was secured in 2012.

Neza Kogovsek Salamon, who heads up the Peace Institute in Slovenia, has been one of the architects of the legal strategy that culminated in Kuric and Others vs. Slovenia, the case that generated the European Court decision.

“It was actually a case that started with 11 applicants, and it started with some activists outside of the Peace Institute,” she told me back in October. “Nothing was happening at the time. The politicians were ignoring the issue, unless they used the issue against the Erased to gather political points. So, it was a very desperate situation for the victims and for the civil society. A group of activists decided that something had to be done, and the only thing that hadn’t been explored yet was the European Court of Human Rights. That’s how they started to gather cases.”

We were talking in the Peace Institute offices, which are located in Metelkova, the former army barracks that activists squatted in the 1990s. In addition to a youth hostel and several nightclubs, Metelkova houses a large collection of NGOs, including the Peace Institute. The alternative culture nurtured at Metelkova provided a good deal of support for the Erased at a time when the Slovenian mainstream was oblivious about the issue.

After the European Court decision, the major issue remaining is compensation: how much, for whom, in what form, over what period of time. Few people in Slovenia, however, expect that the government will ignore the judgment.

“This court is actually the most successful international court on the planet,” Neza Kogovsek Salamon explained to me. “When it comes to success rate, the number of judgments issued, the number of decisions implemented, there is no comparable institution in the world. If the Republic of Slovenia wants to be a democratic state, if it wants to be in the group of other democratic states without having to defend itself all the time, then it simply has to respect the decisions of the highest judicial bodies in Europe.”

In this interview, she guided me through the thorny legal issues, the question of compensation, and the implications of the case for human rights more generally. Below this interview, I’ve also included excerpts from our 2008 conversation.

The Interview

Do you remember where you were and how you felt about the fall of the Berlin wall?

I think I was still in elementary school, so I have no idea. The only thing I remember is the Eurovision songBrandenburger Tor that included the line: “After many long years, a new spring for the Brandenburg Gate.” Which means there are no more walls and was referring to the fall of the Berlin wall. So that’s the only thing I remember about the Berlin Wall.

Why did you decide to go into law? And human rights in particular?

I always felt that I have this sense of justice. I wanted to see justice in the world, and for me law was a natural way to go. Even though, while I was in law school, I saw that law is not always about justice. Very often it’s about a formalistic approach to resolving issues. So when I discovered that some branches of law have more to do with justice, these branches were of course very attractive to me. That’s how I started to work in the field of asylum law, citizenship, migration, human rights, and non-discrimination. These are still the issues that I connect very much with justice. I ended up a lawyer very much because of the sense of justice that I have always been carrying with me. Even my mother would say, for example, that when I was little I was always screaming about some injustice that has taken place.

Do you remember a particular incident when you were a child?

Not really. This is just something that she would say. I don’t remember that. But I’m not surprised that she would say that, because that’s very much me.

How did you get involved in the issue of the Erased?

When I was in the United States, I was very lucky to work as an intern for Human Rights Watch. Since I was from Slovenia, which was a part of former Yugoslavia, and because I spoke the local languages, I was interesting for them — with regard to the war crimes and crimes against humanity that took place after the dissolution. This is the issue I was studying in the United States when I was studying human rights law as well as working at Human Rights Watch.

Of course these are quite difficult issues for a twenty-something person. Then, when I came back, I actually needed a challenge that would be comparable to what I was doing in the United States. The biggest challenge in Slovenia at the time seemed to be the issue of Erased. It was very stigmatized, very politicized. And it was very difficult, on the other hand, for the victims. It’s not of course comparable to war crimes in the sense of the gravity of the crimes, but it’s very much comparable in the sense of the social and political mechanisms that led to these violations. So I immediately saw the parallels between the two issues. And I figured very quickly that this is something that would answer my need for a challenge.

In what year was that?

That was in 2006. I returned to Slovenia at the end of 2004. For a year I was working on non-discrimination issues, which were not difficult enough, I have to say. So this is when I got involved with the issue of the Erased. We started to prepare a project, and we received funding.

You said that anti-discrimination was not a big enough challenge. Why?

There are of course very difficult situations when it comes to anti-discrimination, and some problems are quite serious: for example, when you work on issues concerning the Roma population, or disability, or racism. I’m still working on these issues. But at the same time Slovenia was struggling a lot with issue of the Erased. On the political level, it didn’t compare to non-discrimination issues.

When you were in the United States, doing your studies and working with Human Rights Watch, had you thought about working with the Tribunal and going to The Hague?

It was always a very interesting option. But I just didn’t channel my interest in that direction sufficiently to pursue any opportunities there. At the time that I returned to Slovenia, there was an opportunity waiting for me here already, with the Peace Institute, working on non-discrimination issues. So that’s why I decided that I am going to start here and then see what happens. And then I just continued here, and I’m very happy about that.

When we talked about four and a half years ago, if I remember correctly, there had been a number of cases in front of the European Court. And there was a problematic piece of legislation here in Slovenia that did not include compensation and that raised some question about when citizenship would be retroactive. There were a number of thorny loophole questions. Could you take me through that point to where we are today?

The case that you mentioned is called Kuric and Others vs. Slovenia. It was actually a case that started with 11 applicants, and it started with some activists outside of the Peace Institute. Nothing was happening at the time. The politicians were ignoring the issue, unless they used the issue against the Erased to gather political points. So, it was a very desperate situation for the victims and for the civil society. A group of activists decided that something had to be done, and the only thing that hadn’t been explored yet was the European Court of Human Rights. That’s how they started to gather cases.

They gathered about 50 cases. And they looked for an attorney that would take the case pro bono to the European Court of Human Rights, because the people of course had absolutely no money to pay for an attorney. They looked for an attorney in Slovenia, and nobody wanted to take it. Some of the people said that the case had no chance of succeeding, others said they were scared, still others said they were not interested or they didn’t do pro bono cases. So they were not able to find anybody in Slovenia. They had some connections with Italian activists who found an attorney in Rome to represent them, so that’s how it all started.

The attorney selected 11 of the most difficult cases from these 50 and they took the case to court. About six months ago, the Peace Institute got involved in terms of supporting the case. We offered because we had started a project that enabled us as an institution to start working on this professionally, not just in our free-time, but really focusing on the issue through our capacity as lawyers, researchers, people working with the media, and so on. We actually got involved with the case quite seriously. We filed a third-party intervention to the court, and we were working in the field in Slovenia on the case. Because without being here and doing the analysis, we wouldn’t be able to exhaust the domestic remedies in the country. The Italian lawyer didn’t speak Slovenian so he couldn’t do it by himself. So this is where the Peace Institute started to play a big role.

And this was in…

This was in the beginning of 2007. After that, we worked on the case very seriously for three years. Then, the European Court of Human Rights issued the first decision on the merits, and it found in favor of the applicants. Unfortunately there were only 10 of them left, because one had died. There was another misfortune with the cases, because the court only found in favor of eight applicants. Two of them had already received permanent residence permits at the time, so the court said that this was a sufficient remedy offered to the people by the state. So, only eight of them were still victims in this case, because they still didn’t have any permanent residence issued by the state. It was a win, but it had some serous downsides.

There was a big question about what would happen next. The Slovenian government made it very easy. Both the attorneys and the applicants were undecided whether to appeal the case or not. They decided to appeal only with regard to the two who were left out. The Slovenian government, however, appealed everything. The government was not happy with the verdict, even though it was actually quite good for the government. Even though the court found in favor of the applicants, it decided that returning a permanent residence to the people is sufficient, without any compensation. This actually doesn’t cost very much, when you look at it from the point of view of the government. But this was a very bad outcome for the applicants, and for the community of the Erased in general. The Slovenian government didn’t really see it that way.

A year after that, in 2011, there was a public hearing. Of course the Court held public hearings all the time. But for the Erased people, of course, it was a key event. Our project made sure that they went to Strasbourg to attend the hearing, so that the judges could actually see the people about whom they are deciding. When you see the applicants, you can see their suffering, what they have been through in the last 20 years, on their faces. So it was quite important for us that this is not just an abstract legal issue for the judges but that it actually has a very serious impact on the victims of the violation.

That was quite an event, you can imagine. Some of the applicants, they were getting outside of the country for the first time in 20 years because they simply had no documents before that. We even asked the court to give them special permission if the police would stop their bus and they could show these documents of the European Court of Human Rights saying that they are going to attend the hearings. This was quite an emotionally strong period for the applicants and for the whole team.

Finally, in 2012, the grand chamber issued the second judgment, which was great for the Erased in most aspects. Six of the remaining eight applicants were granted compensation. In the meantime these six people had also received permanent residence from the government. So the key question was whether the grand chamber was going to consider the giving back of permanent residence to be a sufficient remedy. If they said yes, then the whole case would be lost. There were only two people that didn’t get permanent residence, and this is because they didn’t apply in time. One of them applied later, but one didn’t apply at all. They said, “We want the state to give it back to us without applying.”

But the court said that these six people who had already received permanent residence are still victims, because this is not sufficient. It only stops the violations from continuing, but it doesn’t really remedy anything from the past. For the past there has to be compensation—this was the key message of the European Court of Human Rights. The six applicants got 20,000 Euros each for non-pecuniary damages. They are still waiting for pecuniary damages to be determined, which means they will probably get something more. Which again, is probably not so much when you think about the 20 years of suffering. But still it is a very high compensation from the European Court of Human Rights when you look at its case law. It’s not very often that the court grants such a high compensation.

What’s the difference between pecuniary and non-pecuniary?

Non-pecuniary damages actually means compensation for the suffering — the emotional suffering, the physical suffering — caused by this violation. Pecuniary damages actually means material damages: lost incomes, lost future income, the expenses that they had. Because they were left without any kind of legal status. For example, if they had to pay for a doctor, since they were not entitled to free health services. This is still waiting to be decided.

And that depends on the person?

Yes, it’s case by case.

Non-pecuniary, that was one sum for each…?

That was the same sum for the six applicants, which of course does not mean that the same sum would be awarded in any future cases, unless they would be very similar in the circumstances. The principle of equity is actually the main basis on which the European Court decides damages. It approximates the damage but doesn’t really go into details when determining the amount of non-pecuniary damages. So, this was really big benchmark in the whole struggle, because this was the first time that any of the erased people got any kind of monetary compensation for this violation. At the same time, the judgment is quite important because it is also a pilot judgment. Meaning that the court also ordered the Slovenian state to adopt an ad hoc mechanism for compensations to be paid in Slovenia. This means that it doesn’t only have an effect on the six applicants who won in this case, but it also has an effect on all the other Erased people in Slovenia.

There was of course a downside to the judgment. First of all, the two applicants who were already rejected stayed in this position. The grand chamber couldn’t really change, for procedural reasons, the decision of the chamber. Because it does not have the competence to look into the question of who is still a victim and who is not a victim. If the chamber decides that people are no longer victims of a violation, then the grand chamber cannot change that. This was very unfortunate. There was also a very close vote on this among the judges, so there was no agreement among the judges on this issue. Another downside concerns the other applicants who did not apply for permanent residence until 2010, and there was a very close vote by the judges. Nine of the judges felt that they should have applied for permanent residence permit – and that this was an effective domestic remedy — while eight judges said: “but we already said in the judgment that there are no effective remedies in the country, so why would we claim for the two that they have to apply for this? What if they don’t want permanent residence anymore? What if they just want compensation for the suffering? Isn’t that legitimate as well?” So that was a very close vote, nine to eight, but the nine, of course, prevailed. So the two people were rejected for reason of the non-exhaustion of domestic remedies.

This is what happened with the case at the European Court of Human Rights. At the same time, of course, we had some national developments, which didn’t really have much to do with this pending case. There was a change of government here in Slovenia in the meantime. In 2008, a left-wing government came to power. They were a bit more attentive to this issue, and the minister of interior, Katarina Kresal, was actually very much in favor of doing something. She actually said in her first speech to the public, when she was running for the position of the minister, that one of her priorities would be dealing with the issue of Erased people, because it was simply unbearable, from the point of view of the rule of law, to have a constitutional court decision from 2003 that had not been implemented yet. She said that she would immediately do something about that. When she came to power, the ministry of interior started to prepare an amendment to the problematic law from 1999. When this law was passed in 2010, the government enabled a bigger group of erased people to get their status back. Not all of them, because there were still quite strict conditions that a person had to meet to get the status back. The number of people who managed this is quite low, so civil society, including the Peace Institute and including me, is still not very happy with the law. But still the window of opportunity opened up a bit more.

The main problem is the deadline to apply for legal status, which is going to expire next year. Some people are only now getting information about this possibility, and we believe that some people will get the information only after the expiration of this deadline. So, they will never be able to get back permanent residence according to the more favorable conditions that are in place for the Erased. They will only be able to get it back under the general rules of migration law in Slovenia. So we think that this deadline should be extended.

The other problem is, without going into too much detail, that there are still very strict conditions that have to be fulfilled. You have to prove that you tried to return, and it’s very difficult to try to prove that if, for example, you only made phone calls. How can you prove that you made a phone call on September 1, 2007? It’s completely impossible. So there are some very difficult conditions like that, and this is proven by the rejection rate of these applications filed by the Erased people, which is quite high.

The Slovenian government has no intention to appeal this latest decision of the European court? Does it have that option?

It doesn’t have any other option to appeal. This is the final, final decision. The only thing they can do is to implement the decision. They have to explain how they implemented the decision to the committee of ministers, which is the body supervising the implementation of the European Court of Human Rights decisions in the Council of Europe. The European Court has no more powers to execute the decisions. It is up to the government, and the government has to explain to the committee of ministers. The committee of ministers then reviews the measures proposed by the government, and then it issues an opinion on whether this is sufficient or not.

But in some cases the European Court makes decisions and governments simply don’t implement the decision because the court, as you said, doesn’t have any actual leverage other than public opinion. When I said to one of my Slovenian interviewees, “The Slovenian government could just ignore this decision too,” this person said, “The Slovenian government would never do that!” I said, “Really? I’m actually quite surprised and happy to hear that.” And that’s your opinion as well?

Well, it does happen of course. There are a number of decisions of the European Court of Human Rights that haven’t been implemented, as we all know. There is a very well known one in the United Kingdom about prisoners deprived of the right to vote. There was a decision in the European Court of Human Rights, and the UK government got very angry and simply refused to implement it. So it does happen, as it does happen as well with the Slovenian Constitutional Court decisions. It was a very similar situation with the 2003 decision, and it took seven years for the government to implement it.

This is very much a decision of the government: what kind of government and what kind of state the Republic of Slovenia wants to be. Is it going to be a state that will respect the most important rule-of-law institutions, not just in Slovenia, but on the European level, and this goes particularly for the European Court of Human Rights? This court is actually the most successful international court on the planet. When it comes to success rate, the number of judgments issued, the number of decisions implemented, there is no comparable institution in the world. If the Republic of Slovenia wants to be a democratic state, if it wants to be in the group of other democratic states without having to defend itself all the time, then it simply has to respect the decisions of the highest judicial bodies in Europe. Otherwise, in this political process, it’s going to have a lot of explaining to do. And it already has had a lot of explaining to do with the issue of the Erased, which was completely unnecessary. It could have resolved the issue 10 years ago. I would be very surprised if the government chose the path that would make it still have a lot of explaining to do.

I would personally advise the government to resolve the problem, because otherwise it is just going to be hanging there. People are not going to just die off so soon. There are lots of young Erased people who can call attention to this issue for the next 50 years, and I’m not very sure if we all – not just civil society, but the government too – have the resources and the energy to deal with this. Also, public opinion here has changed a lot. There are lots of people who didn’t understand before but who now understand, after the European Court of Human Rights judgment.

Was there any significant political voice that called for ignoring the European court decision?

The word “ignore” wasn’t used. There were some statements that were not very flattering and that pointed to the direction of ignoring. But this word was not used. The statements were made in terms of, for example, “Slovenia just simply doesn’t have the money to pay these compensations.” This was the statement of the prime minister. After that he didn’t issue these statements anymore. I would say the politicians thought twice and realized that this is not a statement to be made in democratic Europe. Also, the first six compensations were paid on time, within the three-month deadline set by the court. Each country that is a member of the Council of Europe and that has granted competence to the European Court of Human Rights to review complaints has put money aside in reserve for compensations to be paid because of the judgments of the court. Slovenia has done the same.

You mean the 20,000 Euro non-pecuniary judgment?

Yes, for the six applicants. Meaning that 120,000 Euros was already paid. Another statement was given by the current minister of interior, who said something like, “Some of the Erased people do not deserve this, so the experts will decide who will get compensation and who will not.” So there was still some relativism introduced into the issue, which we have been hearing for the last 20 years. But after some time these kinds of statements stopped.

Now everything points in the direction that a law will be prepared, in accordance with the European Court of Human Rights judgment. There was just recently a working group appointed to prepare this law. The court gave Slovenia one year to prepare this ad hoc compensation committee. Of course the question remains: “What kind of scheme will they propose? What kind of conditions will be again imposed on the people?” Because there will definitely be some conditions. The Slovenian government will definitely try to limit the number of people eligible for such compensation and limit the amount of compensation as much as possible. If the compensation paid, or proposed, will be very low, they will again have some explaining to do.

And do you have any recommendations at this point about how compensation can be calculated?

There were some measures in the past, passed by the Slovenian government, on the issue of remedying human rights violations. These laws concerned remedying injustices that took place at the time of the Second World War. This is a starting point that can be used for the issue of the Erased as well.

Compensation would definitely have to be paid for the erasure as such, and for the suffering that the people have experienced. There is definitely a difference between those who managed to regulate their status very soon – some people managed that after a few months or a few years — and those who couldn’t do it for 15-20 years. There is also a way to calculate material damages. For example, if because of the erasure, the Erased people weren’t able to keep their permanent residence all this time, which is something that should have taken place. If they kept a permanent residence permit, they would be at least entitled to social assistance from the state. This is the minimum income that anybody with permanent residence in Slovenia is entitled to.

There are also other possibilities that can be explored, because we are all aware of the financial situation of Slovenia. There are not endless opportunities for compensation. There are also many proposals on the table of remedies that are not necessarily expressed in money. For example, the state has a number of empty apartments. If there is a family who would like to return but has nowhere to return to, the family could use this apartment for a year until they managed to integrate a little bit better and support themselves. There is also a scheme of scholarships already in place in Slovenia. If there is a child born to an Erased person, there could be additional points awarded to this child when he is competing for the scholarship. A similar priority could be given to a person who today has citizenship and is already eligible for non-profit apartments: an additional 100 points could be given to the Erased people and maybe they could get an apartment this way. So there are a number of additional ways to address this compensation without really causing additional financial burden to the state.

Part of your project was to do a lot of interviews with the Erased, and I’m curious, were you able to do interviews with people outside of Slovenia as wel

Yes, some interviews were made both in Slovenia with the people who were absent for a very long time and also outside of Slovenia with people who are still absent. So we know quite well what happened to the people who, for example, were deported, who could never return, and what happened to people who left Slovenia temporarily to visit somebody or to go to a funeral or to go on vacation and could never return. Some people thought they would leave temporarily and see what happens, and they could not return. I think we have quite a good insight into what people experienced in these 20 years.

I remember stories of people being deported and getting caught up in the wars that were taking place at that time. Were you able to track down people who had that experience?

Yes, usually when we interview somebody who was been absent for almost 20 years, they have a story like this, of being caught up in a war after being deported.

Do you have a sense of how many people who are not in Slovenia at the moment would like to take advantage of the opportunity to return?

We don’t have the precise statistics. But we do know that from about 25,000 erased people, about 10-11,000 managed to regulate their status in Slovenia, and this number has not increased much since 2009. Also, unfortunately, about 1,300 people died. Which means that about 13,000 of the Erased, more or less, are still outside Slovenia and are still potential applicants for permanent residence permit. Among those 13,000, maybe 250 until now applied for permanent residence permit since 2010, when the amendments to the old act were introduced. So, 250 out of a potential 13,000 is a very low number. So what we figured out when we were talking to the people is that first of all, the information about this possibility simply doesn’t reach the potential applicants, because the government didn’t do any serious information campaign when this law was adopted. Maybe some brochures were sent to embassies of Slovenia in the successor states of the former Yugoslavia, but the state as such didn’t really do any information campaign. We tried to disseminate information through our media and civil-society channels in the countries of former Yugoslavia, but this is very limited.

Second of all, people are probably now not so interested in regulating their legal status in Slovenia because 20 years have passed since this violation took place. They probably arranged their lives now in the republics of former Yugoslavia or in Western Europe. A lot of Erased people are living in Germany, Belgium, and so on, where they went after the dissolution of Yugoslavia. Now they are becoming a little bit more interested because they saw that something is finally moving with the European Court of Human Rights judgment and the possibility of compensation, which is totally normal. Even if they are not interested to get their permanent residence permit, they might be interested to get some compensation for the suffering they have gone through because of the erasure.

Earlier you said there had been a shift in public opinion here in Slovenia. I remember when I was here in 2008, there was a pro bono ad campaign with banners and selections from interviews with the Erased. I’m curious whether you think that played an important role in this shift in public opinion, or were there other major initiatives?

The information campaign with the big banners was important, and it contributed a little bit to the change. But I think that the main element that changed public opinion was, first of all, the civil society work on this issue. Which of course is only possible if you have support for these projects. Otherwise you just do it in your free time, which none of us has very much of. Civil society was working on this issue for the last six years, constantly, without letting the politicians remove it from their agenda. This made it possible every year to do some activities on the anniversary of the erasure, which is February 26. We did roundtables informing the public about what has been happening and public letters supporting the case in the European Court of Human Rights, which then ended up with such a victorious judgment. There were also the protests carried out by the Erased people themselves.

I wouldn’t say that any one of these activities had a much more important role than any other, except for perhaps the European Court of Human Rights judgment. That was definitely the major element that influenced public opinion. If civil society had been weak, if there were no funds behind it, if there was no legal aid, if there was no such combination of different activities, I think that the issue would have been in a quite different state today.

We carried out a public opinion poll a couple of years ago precisely to see where public opinion stands. It would be very useful to repeat that in the future, like next year or in two years, with the same questions, to see whether this changed or not.

What were the results a couple years ago?

There is a little summary of the results in the introduction to our book, The Scars of Erasure. It’s actually not as bad as you would expect. But I would expect now it would be even better.

The source of information that I have for saying that public opinion has changed is the commentaries in the media. If you go online and look at the major newspapers and the commentaries on the issue of the Erased, the forum below the articles shows a completely different story compared to what was happening a couple of years ago. Before it was only stigmatization of Erased people, trying to portray them as traitors, cheats, aggressors, trying to dehumanize them. But now it’s a completely different story. People who clearly are not political are saying, “But come on people, the European Court of Human Rights said it. I mean if they said it, obviously there’s something wrong. I was not supporting the erased people for a very long time, but this clearly convinced me because I just believe in this court. I think it has credibility, and we just simply have to do something about it.” Things like that show you that ordinary people who are not paid to participate in this kind of forum – and there are people paid by the political parties to comment in the newspaper – are saying that they are not experts and have changed their opinion.

Some of the folks in the Erased movement want compensation in the form of justice: punishment for those who are responsible for what happened. Do you think that is possible?

This issue actually started to become more visible now that no one can argue that this was not a violation when even the European Court of Human Rights has said that it is. Many times you had politicians, especially new ones who just entered the scene, who wanted to debate whether or not this was a violation. Now these types of politicians are in a minority, and this has opened the space for the issue of responsibility to come up.

So, lots of people are now asking about the issue of responsibility. Also lots of people are not very happy that taxpayers are going to be paying for this compensation. So they are calling on the perpetrators of this violation to pay. It’s a very good question, whether this will happen or not. It’s not possible to prosecute this as genocide or a war crime. It doesn’t meet the threshold for a crime against humanity. So it has to be something else, like the abuse of authority or violation of equality. So there is a possibility under our criminal law.

Justice Zupancic, a Slovenian judge at the European Court of Human Rights, also very clearly pointed out in his concurring opinion that the member states of the Council of Europe have to investigate all suspicions of violations of equality of discriminatory acts. And the European Court of Human Rights did confirm that the erasure, and the lack of remedies for the erasure, was not just a violation of article 8, which is the protection of private and family life, but also a violation of the principle of non-discrimination. It was clearly a discriminatory act, and therefore the country has to investigate it. If it doesn’t investigate it, then it also violated the principle of non-discrimination. So there’s an additional duty of non-discrimination that has to be investigated by the state if they want to be in accordance with the European Convention on Human Rights. This opens up a very interesting legal and political discussion. On the one hand, our law has quite short statutory limitations that have all expired because this violation took place 20 years ago; on the other hand, we have a very clear obligation under the European Convention on Human Rights to investigate all discriminatory acts, regardless of any possible expiration of statutory limitations. The Erased people are preparing some kind of criminal report, which the state prosecutor’s office will have to deal with.

So, this investigatory committee would be separate from the ad hoc committee that’s put together for figuring out compensation?

This would be a separate issue. Because what you’re actually suggesting is, if I understand correctly, some kind of truth commission. So there are three possibilities. One is the committee that was put in place by the government to implement the European Court of Human Rights decision on compensation. The second thing is the report prepared by the Erased people, which would be sent to the prosecutor’s office. And the third possibility, which civil society has put on the table, is the possibility of a truth, or investigatory, committee. We have been advocating for this for quite a long time, but there was no serious response yet by the government. The only response that we got was something like, “We don’t think that’s necessary.”

So I don’t think that this will take place, even though this would be quite useful for catharsis: to really embrace the fact that this did happen, that we really have to put energy into remedying these violations and investigate what happened. We already know a lot of what happened. We have the main documents, but some issues still remain unclear. Like whether this was really a decision, or was it something that just came naturally? Whether it was discussed by some government committee, or the government just trusted the ministry to do the right thing, and then the ministry did it this way? So there are lots of issues that still remain unresolved on this political level. So it would definitely be useful to have some kind of truth commission. But I’m very often afraid that this proposal would be abused by the parliament to establish a parliamentary committee—which is never good. It’s always used just for political purposes, and it never really is genuinely used to investigate some kind of an issue. So I would say that if they want to have a parliamentary committee, it’s better to not have anything.

Do you think that this issue has implications beyond just the Erased? Does it have implications for how one defines citizenship, or how one establishes citizenship in a state in transition, or questions of non-discrimination?

I think it already had impact beyond that. I’m not sure if it had de facto impact, in terms of some countries learning from us and doing it the right way, especially because in Europe there were not so many new countries that would be defining citizenship. But I think that it did affect scientific discussion about citizenship, even though, as you know, it’s not so much about citizenship. It’s more about permanent residence and the right to continue residing in the country even though the borders changed. Even if you are without citizenship, as long as you have residence rights you can still live normally, with all the social and economic rights.

But regardless of that, I think it already did have a lot of impact, because there were lots of academics, researchers, philosophers who took the problem of erasure as their starting point. Even on the international law level, the international law commission started to work on draft articles about the regulation of citizenship in the case of state succession. And these articles take into account the problems that took place in Slovenia, in the former Yugoslavia, as well as the Baltic states and the Czech Republic and Slovakia. So there is a very good starting point with the draft articles, which unfortunately never really grew into a convention, or anything binding for the international public.

Of course it doesn’t mean that similar violations cannot take place in the future. They always do. We always think that we learn something from a genocide, and there’s another genocide taking place. But still the awareness does produce certain changes at the international level with regard to declarations, even if they are not binding. So, slowly, we are making progress as a planet.

You said that the reason you took on the issue is because it was a challenge, a big challenge. Have you identified another major injustice that would engage you in the same way that this issue has engaged you?

Unfortunately, I think that we are living in a time that is quite challenging when it comes to human rights. Especially because of the economic crisis, which is now worldwide. The economic crisis has been a very useful excuse to interfere with human rights in general, especially social and economic rights, which are not even recognized as rights everywhere in the world.

There was recently a quite big interference with the rule of law and human rights in general in Slovenia. For example, there was a problem with pensions. With the austerity package that Slovenia adopted, there was also a big cut in one portion of pensions that are being paid in Slovenia. But these pensions were recognized by legislation, and by binding decisions issued by competent bodies. So they are part of the rule of law. With the austerity measures, the state has interfered with a number of pensions that were recognized this way, and this raises a very serious debate of how far the austerity measures can go when it comes to human rights protection, and mechanisms we actually have in place to protect human rights. We are awaiting a new package of austerity measures that will definitely again cut some of the acquired rights.

This is a very serious challenge. It’s a challenge for all of us to find a way to protect human rights to the extent that we can afford to and at the same time make sure that the government does not go bankrupt.

Have you already elaborated a project on this? Or are you just beginning to think about it?

We have some projects that are dealing with this, but in a more specific way, for example, in labor rights. It doesn’t deal so much with the whole scale of social and economic rights, not yet. One of our colleagues is actually doing a twin project with Mexico. We are learning from them about austerity measures and a weak social state and so on. And they can learn from us about what kind of mechanisms can be in place to at least have some kind of welfare state.

When you look into the near future, and you consider the prospects for Slovenia over the next couple of years, how do you evaluate those prospects on a scale of 1 to 10, with one being most pessimistic and ten being most optimistic?

I would say 5. Because we cannot ignore the fact that we are part of the developed world. We live very well compared to a very big part of the world that doesn’t live so well. I try to mention this from time to time when people are very desperate. Because I know how people are living in other parts of the world, and we are still well off. So for that reason I would still keep it a 5.

But I would not assess it more than 5 because I think that Slovenia is unfortunately following the pattern that Europe is tackling the crisis, which we are not very happy about it. We think that it is adopting too much of a neo-liberal, Chicago School approach. We think that the Keynes school would be a better one to follow. Maybe a New Deal would be a very good option, not just for Slovenia, but for Europe. Because Slovenia is very much connected to the economy of Europe as a whole, because we are such a small economy. So that’s why I would not give it more than a 5.

The second quantitative question is, when you look back from 1989 until today and you evaluate all that has happened here in this country, or hasn’t happened here in this country, how would you evaluate that 1 to 10, with 1 being most dissatisfied and 10 being the most satisfied?

I would say the same, 5. I think we still managed to have some progress. We tackled some difficult issues, at least to a certain extent. But precisely for the fact that so much has been promised at the independence, I still think that the state as such made lots of mistakes that were completely unnecessary. That’s why I would not keep it more than 5, and I consider 5 a bad grade. It’s not 1, but it’s not passing.

The final quantitative question, again from 1989 until today, same scale, 1 being most dissatisfied and 10 being the most satisfied: your personal life?

I’m always optimistic, always trying to set new goals. And so far I have achieved most of my goals, so I would just give it a 10.

Ljubljana, October 19, 2012

Interview (2008)


I studied international human rights law at the University of Notre Dame in Indiana. When I came back to Slovenia, I cooperated with the Peace Institute, doing some judicial training on anti-discrimination. At this time, I was planning to do a bigger project on issue of erasure. The work that had been done on this issue was not systematic enough, the NGOs working in this field are weak. So it was important for a bigger NGO like the Peace Institute to do advocacy and research on this topic.

When I came back to Slovenia in 2004, the right-wing parties had won the elections. Many people dealing with the issue of the Erased at that time were tired. So I came to the Peace Institute, showed some enthusiasm about the issue. This was the biggest human rights violation in the 16-year history of Slovenia. Since I had been dealing with war crimes and other human rights violations around the world in my studies, I felt that this was the issue that needed attention at the moment. So I became coordinator of a three-year project that began in January 2007 and will end in December 2009 and will monitor everything connected to the issue of the Erased and analyze policy developments. My role is overview but as a lawyer I will also get involved in particular cases and I will serve as the contact person for the attorney’s office in Rome representing the 11 cases in the European court. Whenever they need information on national legislation or on the complainants, I am the contact person.

There are two main parts of the field research. We will be contacting erased people throughout Slovenia and abroad (Bosnia, Italy, Germany). And we will also do interviews with the Erased to make an archive of their recorded testimony. We will later use these recordings to do sociological and legal analysis of the consequences of erasure. From this research, we have encountered people who still don’t have status or need legal assistance to resolve other legal issues. We link these people in the field with lawyers. Everything depends on the client. People are still afraid of the authorities and what will happen to them. We are also planning two academic conferences to insert the issue of erasure into public discourse and into the academic debate. Because up to now it has been completely lacking. Why do we only have two publications on the Erased, which is the biggest human rights situation in Slovenia? In comparison, there are a dozen publications on Roma.


The government has said that its proposed draft law will resolve the issue of the Erased and implement the decision of the Constitutional Court from 2003. But if we look at the draft law, it will not in fact implement the court decision. The 2003 Constitutional Court decision demanded that the status of the Erased be returned from the date of erasure, retroactively. But the draft law foresees the return of erasure only to the moment of the filing of the application for permanent residence. A person could have filed in 1999 or 2005 – it’s different for every person. If this law were adopted, these people would have a gap in the history of their legal status of 10 years, or 16 years. The second point is that the beneficiaries of the law are limited to those who applied in the past for permanent residency, and does not include those who didn’t apply. A third point: the draft completely excludes the right to compensation.

Of the 18,000 Erased, about 12,000 already have permanent residency. They got it back. A lot of them also got citizenship. So, there are about 6,000 left. About 2,000 of these have some temporary residency, on the basis of work or family status or schooling. This means that they are still in a very precarious situation. This status could cease any year. The other 4,000 still don’t have status. Many were expelled and couldn’t return. Many left on their own because they couldn’t survive in Slovenia as illegal migrants. We don’t know how many of these are here and how many have left. The Slovenian government claims that the erasure doesn’t exist anymore because the ones who left did so voluntarily. But they didn’t leave voluntarily.

The government didn’t coordinate with other political parties whose votes they needed in order to get the law passed by two-thirds. This suggests that adoption of the law is not the government’s goal. Last October 29, the government faced a deadline to respond to a lawsuit filed in the European Court of Human Rights. That’s when the government confirmed the draft of the constitutional law. The old proposal was first prepared in fall 2004. It was marked internal and wasn’t known to the public. Only after Amnesty International and journalists from the paper Mladina filed a complaint with the Information Commissioner in accordance with the Access to Public Information act was the draft made public in April 2005. At that time, the coalition parties were not able to secure two-thirds of the votes. It was put aside and no one ever thought it would again be invoked as an appropriate tool because it was rejected that first time. Then, suddenly after two and a half years, this act is proposed as an appropriate tool for remedying violation. The government simply wanted to show that there was some activity going on and shift the burden to parliamentarians. Now the government can point fingers at the parliamentarians who don’t support it. But I think the members of parliament have good grounds for not supporting it, because it doesn’t implement the Constitutional Court decision.

The Constitutional Court established that erasure was unconstitutional. So we need to repair the unconstitutionality. We have to reestablish the situation as it was before the violation. One part of remedying the situation is to eliminate the legal gaps in the history of the Erased. If a person got permanent residence back as of 2005, this person has a 13-year gap in their legal history. If this person got a supplementary decision recognizing their erasure from 1992, this person would for the first time have proof that permanent residency was taken away for them. The Constitutional Court said this is the case for the whole community. But the individual doesn’t yet have this recognition. This person could also use this supplementary decision to ask for compensation.

Why did people not file for compensation after the 2003 Constitutional Court decision? We don’t know. But here are some guesses. They didn’t know whether they had the right to do so because no act said that they had the right to compensation. If the state proposed a law, and the law were adopted, then people would immediately say, “Ah, there really was a violation, and I have the right to file a claim.” Since the government from 2003 on was simply buying time, people were also confused. Only two claims were filed, and they were not successful because of the statute of limitations. According to the general principle of tort law, compensation for damage can be claimed three years after you learned of the damage or five years after the damage was done. The court in one case interpreted the statute to have expired after the publication of the first Constitutional Court decision in 1999, which was more than five years before the claim for compensation. Because of this negative outcome of the first lawsuit and the general position of most lawyers that the statue already expired, people were not courageous enough to file such claims.

We are also trying to file an exemplary lawsuit for compensation but are having difficulty finding a good case. We’re trying to find a person who recently got their status back, for example in 2007. That’s the moment when they were sure that the state was responsible for the violation done to them. Most of the statuses issued to people happened more than three years ago.

We’re now in 2008. The coalition parties don’t believe the erasure ever took place. The state goes back to 1992 to justify that what they did was right. This is like the work of Sisyphus: you climb and you climb and you think you’re talking about something at the top and then they go back to 1992 and you’re back again at the bottom. We’re waiting for elections in the Fall for parliament. Some parties other than the government party have good chances. We’ve talked with these other parties. But the issue of the Erased is not popular, so none of them can give you their word that they would actually resolve it once they come into power. Even if the government swings back to the left, the chances for the status of the Erased to be resolved is very small. It will take more than a shift in government. Generations will have to change. Until all the people who were in power during the erasure retire and new people come in who can see the situation objectively, there will be very little chance of positive outcome. Left-wing parties were on top for 12 years, and they tolerated the consequences of the erasure. So, everyone is complicit.

We don’t really have any good public opinion analysis on views of the erasure. There were only a couple smaller polls conducted by a communication agency around the time of the Constitutional Court decisions. The moment when they were conducted was very politicized, very heated. So perhaps the polls would be different now. They were all very negative against the Erased. The outcome of the referendum was that 97% of the voters said that the rights of the Erased should not be restored. Only about a third of registered voters voted. And they were the ones who were totally against the Erased. So, it’s hard to say that the referendum or the polls around the referendum represent public opinion. The opponents of the Erased are so loud, and they give their nationalistic statements without any fear. Supporters are quiet, and reluctant to expose themselves on this issue.


The claims were filed on July 4, 2006. The application is very long, 100 pages, and covers 11 cases. There are two types of claims. The first is general and applies to all applicants. The second includes specific claims that consider violations that happened to them individually. There were about 12 violations of rights invoked. Eight of them were declared inadmissible by the court for different reasons. For instance, one person claimed that because of the erasure, his health deteriorated. Because he didn’t have health insurance, his health deteriorated even more. This was very much the case with many of the Erased. But the right of health is not protected by the European Convention of Human Rights. The same applies to the right of employment.

Four claims of violations of rights remained under the scrutiny of the court. It’s a two-stage process. The court investigates whether the case fulfils procedural requirements and then it decides on the merits of the case. These four rights that the claimants say were violated are: 1) right to private and family life; 2) right to effective legal remedy; 3) right to non-discrimination; and 4) right to property. In this last case, people did not get the pensions for which they paid contributions. Some worked for 30 years and had paid contributions for all that time.

The case is considered urgent, which means that it will be decided sooner than the majority of cases in the Court. The applicants had a deadline to respond to the government by January 30, 2008. Now the government has a deadline of the end of May. NGOs like the Peace Institute, the Equal Rights Trust from London, the Open Society Justice Initiative have filed third party amicus briefs. We focused on the right to effective legal remedy, which I think is the strongest part of application. The government said that the Erased have so many other legal remedies. But how many legal remedies can you expect these people to use? Many are homeless, many are poor.

If the Court finds in favor of the claimants, the government is obliged to remedy only these people. Unless the Court recognizes that it is systemic and requires legislation that deals with all those affected. Even if these people only win in this individual case, the court provides an interpretation of standards, which other Erased can invoke in their lawsuits. This can be used domestically but it depends on the court.


We are using everything we can – gathering information to support claims in the lobbying process, legal remedies, media for public awareness, international lobbying. We’ve tried many things, and nothing has helped. But if we help this new generation, we hope this can bring change in the future.

The president of one association of the Erased, Alexander Todorovic, feels that criminal procedures are very important. He filed a complaint. He was prosecuted in court by three people responsible for the erasure because he called them fascist. The court was lenient. They said he just shouldn’t do it again. He used the opportunity of the court room to file the criminal complaint of genocide – which was a bit off if you ask me but anyway. The police started to investigate this complaint, so he thinks this is very important politically. The sole fact that the police is investigating it as an act of genocide is a great victory.

There is a communications agency just now carrying out a public awareness campaign. There is a building being renovated that now has yellow drapes in the front with three stories of the erased. It’s also on bus stops – silhouettes of people with links to their stories. They present intimate stories of people in an emotional way to touch every individual who reads them – without politicization, without political debate. We contributed the stories from our interviews, especially those of women and children. Here’s one example: “When they told me that I’m not in the register any more, I thought it was only a bureaucratic mistake that would take only an hour of my time… not 16 years.” They give just the skeleton of the story to give some drama. It’s a pro bonocampaign. The whole agency is devoted to it.

They also have a lot of sponsors. The building belongs to the municipality of Ljubljana and the mayor gave it for free. The city could have gotten a lot of money for the advertising space. The mayor is sensitive to this issue because he is an ethnic Serb. He offered the façade for two months to raise awareness. The construction company agreed to pay for the production and the hanging of the drapes. Some resources were provided by Amnesty International and by us. It was the idea of the communications agency. They want to do a social responsibility project and they thought this was the most problematic issue. They had to choose between hate speech and the Erased and they chose the Erased.


It’s possible to get Slovenian citizenship if you’re not Slovenian. About 170,000 non-ethnic Slovenians got citizenship after independence. There are lots of provisions in our legislation. There is naturalization (after 10 years), special interest (sports and culture), refugees (after 5 years for people with asylum status). You can get citizenship if you get married.

We more or less have the same citizenship legislation as in 1991. The government provided a little easier condition for Slovenians living outside Slovenia but other than that the legislation didn’t change much. A provision was added for refugees. There was a possibility for the Erased to apply for citizenship through another provision.

All other claims from the Erased are about permanent residence. They want this right back. Ordinary people mix up the two. Erasure has nothing to do with citizenship. Citizenship was used to define the group that was erased.


In the meantime we found out from the Ministry of Interior that this data is not entirely true. Among the 12.000 there are also people who only had temporary residence at the time of independence of Slovenia, so they were not erased (the Erased are those who had permanent residence). The Ministry actually does not have the separate data on Erased only; even they don’t know how many have status.

At the end the drapes were hanging there for even longer, for more than two months.

Page 49 of 192« First...102030...4748495051...607080...Last »